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Old July 21, 2014, 10:53 PM   #26
James K
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I am no expert on swordsmanship and don't even play Errol Flynn on TV, but I thought the usual idea was to have the sword in the right hand and a dagger (the main gauche) in the left for close quarters.

As for firearms, someone once said that "a gun is a labor-saving device."

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Old July 22, 2014, 03:18 PM   #27
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That was one form of sword fighting. Others used buckler, shield, or two handed swords. Swords were standard alongside firearms for most of the history of firearms. Right up through the Civil War and even into the later 19th century. And while I'm not suggesting we start carrying smallswords around again, I am wondering if we've lost some important tools in the kit. Since WWI the focus has been more and more exclusively on shooting. For good reasons when it comes to military conflict. But for civil fights we still operate on a continuum under the law. Our training seems to be an either/or matter though. Either you have your firearm and are ready to shoot or shooting, or you have something else. Little attention on flowing between the firearm and the LTL force or back again. At least from what I've seen. Which at the extreme end may result in people getting shot who didn't need shooting.
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Old July 22, 2014, 08:34 PM   #28
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One good thing about folding knives....they make good impact weapons when folded.
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Old July 22, 2014, 09:51 PM   #29
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The way I see it, the whole point of having a gun is so you DON"T have to resort to physical combat.
I agree. I have a friend who does semi-pro level MMA and is an absolute BEAST of a man. We talk sometimes about the merits of hand to hand combat vs. the use of ranged firearms. Both sides of the argument have valid points vs. the other. His benefit is he can defend himself much better than me in situations where a firearm cannot be had on the person. My argument stems from things like the advantage of standoff distance and the psycological effect of the presented firearm having a strong "de-escalation" effect on most individuals.

My thinking is it's good to learn both methods of defense. I consider myself competent enough with a concealed firearm, but I am fat and out of shape, pretty short and non-muscular, and quite clumsy. Therefore, if things get hand to hand, for me... welll... I try and avoid those situations at all costs by using the mush between my ears and carrying a firearm at all times everywhere I'm allowed to!
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Old July 23, 2014, 11:30 AM   #30
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Little attention on flowing between the firearm and the LTL force or back again.
Part of the reason might be our legal system. Today there is the after the fact mindset that using less that lethal force, after using lethal force indicates doubt in your mind that lethal force was necessary, and if such doubt exists, then lethal force is not justified.

Reality, of course, is different, but having to face this particular hurdle in court might explain why training "flowing between the firearm and LTL force or back again" is not emphasized.

In a last ditch, worst case situation, your firearm is an impact weapon. That is not heavily pushed today, likely because today's firearms are poor impact weapons, compared to previous generations.

Times have changed. Troops in WWII and through Korea were trained to shoot, and to fight with the rifle in boot camp/basic training. Both ends and the middle if needed. Today, only certain troops get that kind of training, and its not in basic, its done in specialist schools.

in 1975, my bayonet training in basic consisted of a Drill Sgt holding it up, and saying "This is the M7A1 Bayonet! Take a good look! You will not use it!." When asked why, the response was, "The Army, in its wisdom has decided that if you are in bayonet range of the enemy, the odds are very high that one of you will ammunition, and so we are not going to waste time teaching you the bayonet."

I am also reminded of the story about Pres Roosevelt (TR), and the spike bayonet. Some folks were advocating the spike bayonet, to replace the blade. according to the story, TR took a rifle with a blade bayonet, and in a duel with a Marine guard, cut the spike bayonet off his opponent's rifle with the blade. I don't think we have had a man capable of that in the Oval Office since.

I you think there is a clear need, and a niche for training to "flow" from firearms to edged/impact weapons (and back?) then start a school, and enrich our lives and your wallet.
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Old July 23, 2014, 11:57 AM   #31
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Sword and buckler isn't medieval.
Having a bayonet on a rifle is purely a throw back to muskets. Another military thing that says, "This is how we've always done it and how we'll keep doing it." Like handguns, if you get to where you need one, you've made a very serious tactical error.
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Old July 24, 2014, 10:56 AM   #32
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The bayonet, while a throwback in actual combat as done these days, still has a valid place in the soldier's kit. Its a medium size knife that fastens to the rifle.

May not be the choice for a fighting knife, but its a general utility tool, and it fastens to the rifle. Its not a "weapon" in the sense the rifle is, it is primarily a terror weapon. I think the last US fixed bayonet charge was during WWII. Possibly there have been some others since, small actions somewhere.

The main use of the bayonet (on the rifle) is intimidation. Our minds know that the rifle can shoot, and kill us, but our mind also knows that the blade will cut us. Logically, one should be more afraid of being shot, than stabbed, but our brains don't always process things logically. Cold steel, the naked blade is capable of creating the subconscious fear the rifle alone does not.

There is still a place for a the bayonet, on the rifle. Crowd and prisoner control. VERY useful to have available a less than lethal, painful sharp pointy thing to ..encourage compliance, short of having to shoot someone.
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Old July 24, 2014, 11:00 AM   #33
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Lately, the deployed folks are liking their tomahawks. They report their presence in the hip has impressed the locals. A fine weapon and useful tool.
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Old July 24, 2014, 11:49 AM   #34
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44AMP--that's just what I'm getting at. And I think you're absolutely correct about the legal barriers making it either/or but not both. As for me starting a school, it would be a case of blind leading blind. But I'm going to keep probing around and maybe try some things out. Krav Maga might be a viable foundation for this kind of thing.

Quote:
Sword and buckler isn't medieval.
It dates back that far and farther. In fact it's the basis of the earliest written sword fighting manual in existence, I:33. Put together by ex-soldiers who had retired to monastic life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Armouries_Ms._I.33

The art is being revived now by some outstanding martial artists. Esp. Roland Warzecha out of Hamburg. There are also later Renaissance S&B techniques. Many of Cortez's troops were sword and buckler men. Which seems odd until you witness what that little dinner plate can do in trained hands. Someone swinging a flint club is going to be in for a surprise.
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Old September 20, 2014, 01:41 AM   #35
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I use to carry a cane sword and I could draw it in a single slashing motion as it comes out of the cane across a neck in a pretty fast motion, or just smash your gun hand with the metal head of the cane. You have to remember they are 3 1/2 feet long.
No matter how fast you think you are with a sword, the following still applies:

"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
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Old September 20, 2014, 06:47 AM   #36
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This is silly.
People do train for close quarters combat with handguns.
There's less of a need for it because - unlike a sword - you don't have to be within grappling distance to effectively use a gun.

The military doesn't have swords anymore because guns have evolved to the point that you don't need one. Soldiers don't generally ride horses anymore either.

Swords are undeniably cool, and make for a pretty fun hobby, but that's about it.
All of the contrived sceneries where a sword is somehow better involve a swordsman sneaking up on the gunman and getting their weapon into play first. You could make all the same arguments for a cue ball in a tube sock.
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Old September 20, 2014, 08:07 AM   #37
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Some others in this thread have mentioned Craig Douglas A.K.A. Southnarc. His company is called Shivworks and he travels accross the USA and internationally giving classes. Here is a short clip of him presenting a small part of the training from ECQC with Rob Pincus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ7jBRZwiCg
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Old September 20, 2014, 08:12 AM   #38
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Yeah, it is silly.

Quote:
This is silly.
People do train for close quarters combat with handguns.
There's less of a need for it because - unlike a sword - you don't have to be within grappling distance to effectively use a gun.


Not as silly as you might think though.
I carried a gun, wore a badge, for over 2 decades in a very violent small city.
FIVE times I was attacked by a knife welding gobblins at bad breath distance.
Absolutely NO chance to draw a pistol. To have done so would have gotten me gutted.
TWO times I took pistols away from gobblins when to have gone for my pistol would have gotten me shot.
ONE time I took a rifle from a gobblin & couldn't have gotten to my pistol.
ONE time a crowbar.
Things can go south in a heartbeat.
Of course that was police work & the average citizen may never find themselves in such a situation.
Would you?
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Old September 20, 2014, 09:02 AM   #39
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"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
Depends on range, 5 to 6 feet, I would say "Don't bring a gun to a knife fight" LOL. But I like guns better.

Quote:
The military doesn't have swords anymore
You haven't met any Marines lately have you. (LOL) Do any of you retired jar heads still have your swords?

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Old September 20, 2014, 10:41 AM   #40
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Jim: The Tueler drill (if I spelled it right?) says 21 feet.
21 feet with a holstered gun and a man attacking with a knife.
It ends in a draw. The guy with the holstered gun gets stabbed just when the gun comes out and the guy gets off ONE shot at the knife gobblin.
At bad breath distances & a holstered gun you'd BETTER go for the knife.
If you go for the knife you'd better know how to control the knife while
disabling the attacker. You'd better know where and how to take a cut, if necessary, and still stay in the fight.
Just having a gun on your person and knowing how to use it will
not promise safety.
There is way more to personal safety than just carrying a gun no matter how good you are at shooting it.
And swords are neat. Wish there was a place where I could learn to use one.
I've read a good spearman could defend against 4 swordsman.
Don't know.
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Old September 20, 2014, 12:34 PM   #41
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one of the shows I liked to watch (Justified) last season had a character very enamored of a big knife. Several times during the season he mentioned the ?21 foot rule", and was clearly looking to prove it himself.

During one of the final episodes, he confronts the hero, who essentially, lets him try it. In a tragically humorous twist, as the knife guy rushes the hero, he falls into a hole (that he himself had just dug to bury his dog), and falls on his own knife. (it is dark, but....) end of stupid bad guy, hero didn't even have to draw...

When it comes to sword fighting, what we see on tv and in the movies is almost never sword fighting. Its dramatic swordplay, but not fighting the way it was really done. Dances with Swords.

Real swordfighting isn't like the movies, its not like fencing, or any kind of dueling, its a "kill the other guy" style that uses both ends of the sword, feet, fists, and anything else available. And, its often over very quickly. A single blow usually ends it, and unless both are very evenly matched, that single blow might be the only one struck. Of course, this isn't very entertaining to the audience, so in theater, adversaries bang swords together and dance around the room for a while before its over.

GO shopping in the right places and you can find theatrical swords, these look right at a glance, but have extra thick tangs, and sometimes blades (unsharpened, of course) to stand up to repeated banging against other swords and things, night after night on stage...

As has been said, the best swordsman in the land does not fear the second best swordsman, he fears the novice....because he knows what the second best swordsman will do...
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Old September 20, 2014, 03:00 PM   #42
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Another good thing about folding knives.....much easier to conceal in a closed hand when walking to your car....and much faster to deploy than drawing a holstered gun.
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Old September 20, 2014, 04:09 PM   #43
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Quote:

Another good thing about folding knives.....much easier to conceal in a closed hand when walking to your car....and much faster to deploy than drawing a holstered gun.


Much less effective than a handgun, less range and you really, really, need to know how to effectively use a knife for defense.
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Old September 20, 2014, 06:40 PM   #44
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To clarify, I wasn't implying that one shouldn't be proficient at unarmed or armed cqc.

I was disagreeing with the notion that a sword or knife is in any way superior to a gun.
These threads come up front time to time and generally ignore the fact that - while blades are certainly dangerous - every scenario you can dream up where you come out on top with a knife would be even easier with a gun.

The 21' guy already has his knife out right?
No fun at all, but still preferable to him having a drawn gun.

I do carry a little pocket knife, but it's there to take care of difficult to open packages, and a pieces of knotted string rather than "goblins".

Admittedly my ideas may change as I age, but I'm fairly comfortable defending myself with just the weapons the good Lord and "momma dayman" gave me if for some reason I can't use my gun.
And I can draw my gun in less time than it would take me to fish around in my pocket for a knife and open it anyway.

But that all drifts away from the OP and for that I apologize. I do agree that cqc with a gun is something that should be trained more.
The last day class I went to we worked on incorporating a "get off me" push into our draw stroke, and shooting from retention.
So the training is out there if you look for it.
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Old September 20, 2014, 08:35 PM   #45
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This got me thinking about how few modern shooting methods incorporate wrestling into their techniques.
The way I see it, the whole point of having a gun is so you DON"T have to resort to physical combat.
the problem with that is just having a gun doesn't mean you WON'T have to resort for physical combat. A gun is a distance weapon, most attacks happen in close range. There are countless ways to do it, what happens if your disarmed by your attacker?


Quote:
But just as the sword is a lever, the handgun is a heavy weight that can be used to beat someone. And the rifle is a spear. But I'm not aware of any modern system where shooting from a stance flows into wrestling, as sword strikes flowed into ringen. Anyone heard of any?
I'm no expert but it seems its close quarters shooting, if it flows into actual wrestling wouldn't it be best to drop the pistol?
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Old September 20, 2014, 08:50 PM   #46
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I'm no expert but it seems its close quarters shooting, if it flows into actual wrestling wouldn't it be best to drop the pistol?

You're right. You're not an expert. Dropping the handgun is a very, very, bad
idea.
If you have the handgun in your hand then there must, by defintion, have been some reason to demonstrate your intention to use deadly force.
That said....how in the world would you end up "wrestling" with your threat????

This thread is getting way out there.
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Old September 20, 2014, 08:58 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeager106
Quote:
I'm no expert but it seems its close quarters shooting, if it flows into actual wrestling wouldn't it be best to drop the pistol?

You're right. You're not an expert. Dropping the handgun is a very, very, bad
idea.
If you have the handgun in your hand then there must, by defintion, have been some reason to demonstrate your intention to use deadly force.
That said....how in the world would you end up "wrestling" with your threat????

This thread is getting way out there.
I don't think you understood my comment at all. I wasn't giving any advice....
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Old September 20, 2014, 09:54 PM   #48
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No advice but you asked the question "wouldn't it be best to drop the pistol?"
I responded to the question.
Don't take offense where none was meant.
It's the internet don'cha'know.
I can't pathom a situation where it's best to drop your weapon to wrestle.
..and this thread is getting way out there.
I don't midevil sword play either so perhaps I just don't "get it"?
It's also unlikely I'll ever need to know when to drop my weapon, whatever it may be, to wrestle.
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Old September 20, 2014, 10:14 PM   #49
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Semper Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim243
"You haven't met any Marines lately have you. (LOL) Do any of you retired jar heads still have your swords?"
Heh. I still have my sword - mounted on the wall.

I've actually seen live sword demonstrations on Okinawa that convinced me that a swordsman is not necessarily outgunned at all in modern times. The big issue is that in virtually no daily situations I can think of is a private citizen going to be justified in walking around carrying a sword.

As a tactical instructor for law enforcement officers, I can relate to jaeger106's post - there are countless situations that cops get into which don't allow time to draw a weapon. (They often don't allow time to draw a sword either.) It's a matter of grappling or wrestling around until the officer(s) has/have the opportunity to get the advantage.

Citizens who arm themselves should be in decent physical condition, and ought to understand at least the basics of strikes and blocks, but I agree that for the average citizen there will be a practical limit as to how much equipment you're going to be carrying around with you on a daily basis. A folding pocketknife and a handgun would be a baseline, I'd think for most of us, but probably not a sword or a bowie knife for most situations.

The one lesson I've learned from the instructing I participated in was how easily an officer could lose their primary firearm - trip in a parking lot and watch it slide beneath a parked car, fall from an elevated position like a loading dock, climbing a ladder and encountering resistance, etc. I may not always carry a couple spare magazines, but I'll always carry a second gun...even if its just an Airweight J-frame or a Tomcat. I've seen too many situations where the fastest reload/recovery was a second gun.

Your mileage may vary.
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Old September 20, 2014, 10:14 PM   #50
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no offense taken....

the way I understood the original question wasn't if you should drop your weapon in order to wrestle, but that your opponent had already taken hold of you. IOW, you either didn't draw fast enough or you missed....
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