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Old July 11, 2014, 04:05 PM   #26
Koda94
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The formula is pretty simple. There are the gun rights supporters, you can call them (us?) what you want it wont matter they wont change. There are the gun control supporters, you can call them what you wont they wont change. Then there is everyone else in between.... and you better not call them anything because those are the ones that tip the scale. Be polite, just because they might support a gun control law doesn't mean they are a gun hater.
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Old July 11, 2014, 05:28 PM   #27
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I call them tools because they are tools. If you think calling them tools makes them teddy bears, then you are making a connection I am not.

A chainsaw is a tool, also, but if you're carrying one in the middle of the night on a desert highway, I'm not picking you up. Even if you do have Bud Light...

Oh, and BTW, the hockey mask is a good look for you!.....
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Old July 11, 2014, 08:36 PM   #28
ronl
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My question is, why bother? I've tried before with every fact known to mankind, and with every reasonable argument from the arguments of the Founding Fathers to the scenarios involving life or death, and it makes no difference. Most of them are brainwashed puppets who make their decisions based solely on emotion. Until they are faced with the reality of the world we live in, they will never understand; that is until it is too late.
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Old July 11, 2014, 09:46 PM   #29
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronl
My question is, why bother? I've tried before with every fact known to mankind, and with every reasonable argument from the arguments of the Founding Fathers to the scenarios involving life or death, and it makes no difference. Most of them are brainwashed puppets who make their decisions based solely on emotion....
Yes, which is one of the reasons that spouting "fact" and haranguing folks about the Founding Fathers isn't generally going to get anyone too far. We need to remember that many of the folks we can win over still start out being afraid of guns and, most importantly, afraid of people who have or want guns. Thinking of them as "brainwashed puppets" doesn't help.

Consider some of the reasons for increasing support in many places for gun control.

A lot of it started with the assassinations in the 1960s of JFK, RFK and MLK by nut cases with guns. Those were wildly popular public figures, and their murders laid the foundation for the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.

A lot has to do with the continuing urbanization of America. California, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, etc., are strongly anti-gun in part because the bulk of the political power in those States is in a few major cities. The rural parts of those States are much more pro-gun or neutral. And in States like Washington and Oregon which generally have decent gun laws, the urban centers area still hot beds of anti-gun sentiment.

People tend to look for support and validation from others who share their tastes and values; and they distinguish themselves, often in a denigrating manner, from those who do not. So the city dweller likes to fancy himself sophisticated, socially liberal, well educated, urbane, fashionable, etc.; and he wants to associate with, and have his self image validated by, people he perceive are like him. And they set themselves apart from those they find different -- such as the type of person they believe usually owns guns.

If we want to make a dent in urban anti-gun sentiments, we must challenge their anti-gun sentiments by demonstrating that their perspectives on other things aren't inexorably intertwined with hating guns.We need to start by being good ambassadors for gun owners and, through our manners, activities, and participation in the civic and cultural life of our communities dispel the negative stereotypes of gun owners.
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Old July 12, 2014, 08:07 AM   #30
thallub
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Quote:
If we want to make a dent in urban anti-gun sentiments, we must challenge their anti-gun sentiments by demonstrating that their perspectives on other things aren't inexorably intertwined with hating guns.We need to start by being good ambassadors for gun owners and, through our manners, activities, and participation in the civic and cultural life of our communities dispel the negative stereotypes of gun owners.
Frank Ettin said it very well.

About one third of US voters give a rats butt less about gun rights or gun control. In addition to politely refuting the anti-gunners; we should appeal to those who have not made up their minds.

Hint:
We won't get there by lending moral support to Cliven Bundy and immature gunowners who openly carry loaded rifles into businesses.
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Old July 12, 2014, 10:42 AM   #31
Glenn E. Meyer
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Frank hit it. Well done.
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Old July 14, 2014, 05:38 PM   #32
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A chosen victim of a committed rapist does not stop him in the act through rhetoric or making him feel good about her side of the argument; she stops him through the use of violence.
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Old July 14, 2014, 05:58 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by katokahn99
A chosen victim of a committed rapist does not stop him in the act through rhetoric or making him feel good about her side of the argument; she stops him through the use of violence.
Which means exactly what in the context of this discussion?

If you've proposed that as an explanation for why we here believe guns to be a useful and appropriate tool for the private citizen to use in self defense, we here of course agree. But that doesn't make that particular truism a useful vehicle for winning our political and social battles.

If you're proposing a metaphor to suggest that we must resort to extra-legal aggressive measures, or violence, against our opposition, that is out of line as well as an inapposite metaphor. Thinking of our neighbors, our co-worker, the people in our communities, etc., who are inclined to support gun control as "rapists" will not help us further our political and social interests.
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Old July 14, 2014, 10:49 PM   #34
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Simply being against gun control is not enough. While it is popular to label people "anti-gun" they are in fact pro-gun control. The real antis are those who oppose gun control.
A positive agenda tends to overcome a negative. imho those who oppose gun control are simply holding back the sea until there is enough of a demographic change to drown them.

If however the anti-gun control movement finds positive policies to reduce gun violence it will go the other way around.

Last edited by Buzzcook; July 14, 2014 at 11:02 PM.
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Old July 15, 2014, 03:48 PM   #35
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...positive policies to reduce gun violence...
This is the crux of the matter right here. We all want less of the shootings that they call "gun violence". (as if the gun were the responsible component)

But, gun control laws DO NOT DO THIS. Gun control laws are all about who can have what, where, and when. NOTHING ELSE.

We have, and have always had laws against violence. One is simply not allowed to shoot people for fun or profit. If those laws are not reducing or controlling "gun violence" how does a law that restricts possession (only) do anything?

If you believe that law A is worthless and law B is the cure, go right ahead, but don't be surprised when a criminal ignores A, B, and the rest of the alphabet if it gets in the way of what they want.

The fact is that essentially both sides want the same thing, (fewer shootings) their way to get this is restrict/remove guns in private hands. Our way is stop the people who are doing it, leave guns alone.

They see it as a problem with things, we see it as a problem with people.
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Old July 16, 2014, 08:13 AM   #36
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There are a lot of folks out there we classify as "gun haters" but don't really fit the mold. My son-in-law is a good example. He is not a gun guy, was raised in the country but never cared about firearms. He is a Taekwondo expert and can easily take care of himself, never needed or even considered a firearm. However he is now the father of my grandson, works 6 days a week, and just moved my daughter and grandson into a small home in a somewhat sketchy neighborhood beceause its what they can afford. 2 days after moving in a man attempting to break into a home 2 blocks away was shot and killed by the homeowner. As of a couple days ago there is now a very simple 20 ga. single shot shotgun in their closet. I strongly suspect he would rather not have it there but suddenly it became a good idea. People do change their minds, but if we get the whole "in their face" and come off looking like the idiots at the Bundy ranch, or the guys who openly carry an AR-15 into the mall and video it for youtube, then its going to hard to convince the anti-'s that we are anything but a bunch of gun loving rambo wannabes. Its on us to present the proper image. Lets compare guns to politics, we all know that politics is a necessary evil, has been around for thousands of years. We see the "stuff" that goes on making the news and become so disgusted and anti-politician it would be hard to convince us that politics can be used for good. Seldom do we see making the news, a half dozen senators from different political parties sitting in a cramped back room working out a deal that is good for the country, we see the idiots who are out front happily shutting down the government etc.
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Old July 16, 2014, 09:15 AM   #37
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There have been some excellent analyses on this thread.

Appearance is important. Dressing like a slob or toting an AR into a restaurant because "it is my right" does not win hearts and minds. Going to a gun-rights rally decked out in camo - not helpful.

Also, many pro-gun folks are only about guns. Have some other interests. A shared love of music, photography, sports, the outdoors, etc. can lead to a productive conversation about guns.

This is hard - but be an active listener and show a little empathy. A friend's wife and I were discussing prepping in case of a natural disaster and I asked if she had thought about a security plan. She said no, she was terrified of guns. I asked why. She said because of the violence they represent. I said I understood. Then I gently move to "we don't blame cars for drive-by shootings, though". An a-ha moment. She later agreed that going to a ladies-only shooting class would be a good idea.

Lastly, some people simply won't change. Recognize them and move on.
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Old July 16, 2014, 10:14 AM   #38
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Quote:
...there is now a very simple 20 ga. single shot shotgun in their closet. I strongly suspect he would rather not have it there but suddenly it became a good idea. ..
Is he now going to follow Joe Biden's "advice"???? (sorry, couldn't resist..)

There are a lot of people who don't know guns. They don't like guns. And for them, that's a fine thing. I'm fine with people who don't want to have guns, or have guns around them. Its their choice, and one they are entirely within their rights to make.

BUT, I strongly dislike them foisting their belief system on me. And politician, telling me (through LAW) that I need stand cap in hand, head bowed, tugging on my forelock as they pass by, in order to get their permission to buy something that I already have a dozen of at home, EVERY TIME I want to buy one, AND which is my right, and one of the few rights specifically spelled out in the Constitution? That just grates on me.

What is the logic that says a 50yr old who hasn't even gottin a traffic ticket in 10 years, cannot own a spring loaded box above a certain size, because a 17 yr old, somewhere, went nuts? Gun Control laws seem to all be based on an automatic presumption of guilt. Personally, I find that repugnant.

A lot of people who don't care for guns, for themselves are ok with guns for those who want them. Many of them do support gun control, but only in passive way. Their support is not active, its just not opposition.

They don't oppose gun control, first, because it doesn't have a personal impact on their lives, and second, they accept and believe the lies told by the anti-gun crowd, mostly because they have had nothing in their personal lives to contradict those lies, and because, on the surface they sound rational.

But the real world is more than what is on the surface. Legitimate law abiding gun owners are misrepresented, mischaracterized, and even outright demonized in the media constantly. The media endlessly repeats sound bites and statements without any regard to the actual facts.

They tell how we are all dangerous, because we have/ want guns. WE are ALL the same as the deranged killer to them, we just haven't YET gone on a rampage killing spree.

What do you call it when you stereotype everyone in a group based on a single thing? Once it was called bigotry. Today it is called CNN....et al
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Old July 16, 2014, 10:03 PM   #39
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I'm half tempted to place a gun or a knife on the table sometimes when I'm talking to my brother and then ask him of he feels the need to go and kill something be it stab or shoot them. A debate I had with him a while back, he stated he feels that having guns around the house or whatever promotes violence with guns. Because by their mere presence or availability, the whack job that wants to go shoot up a school is going to take the most effective and easy to use device he can get his hands on, the gun on this case.

I've tried arguing the fact that a person who intends to kill will use whatever is available, be it a gun or a knife but he wouldn't have it, arguing that at least you have a chance to get away from a knife wielding lunatic, while a gun you almost have no chance.

Best counters IMO is to remain calm, civilized and use facts and data to counter their claims. Their aim is to make all of us look like trigger happy but jobs with a penchant to go full on Rambo on people. Slinging mud doesn't help our cause, and can be just as damaging as those...less intelligent folks who go around brandishing AR15's at target and chipotle.
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Old July 16, 2014, 11:58 PM   #40
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They can ask the Detroit Chief of Police about citizens carrying guns, see what he says.
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Old July 17, 2014, 03:31 AM   #41
ATN082268
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Guilty until proven innocent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Gun Control laws seem to all be based on an automatic presumption of guilt.
That is the way laws are that focus on restricting freedom instead of punishing the guilty. The general U.S. population may not support the ban of guns but the government in general and anti-gun types in the private sector do.
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Old July 17, 2014, 10:48 AM   #42
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Projection

(If I have the term wrong, please correct me)

People who don't like guns / hate guns / think that guns are a reason for people's actions are often doing what some call "projection". They know that they don't know guns, and would be dangerous with them, or they know that they could not trust themselves with guns, and project that onto everyone else, in their minds.

Some of them believe that if they had a gun, they would not be able to resist its "siren song" calling them to commit violence with it. And since they could not, then no one else could, either. Therefore, the only safe thing is to keep guns out of everyone's hands.

They also seem to believe that there is some kind of magical immunity to the gun's incitement to commit violence if you wear a police uniform, military uniform, or work as private security. Apparently those occupations make one immune from projection (in their minds) as well.
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Old July 18, 2014, 11:07 AM   #43
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People who don't like guns / hate guns / think that guns are a reason for people's actions are often doing what some call "projection". They know that they don't know guns, and would be dangerous with them, or they know that they could not trust themselves with guns, and project that onto everyone else, in their minds.

Dang! This is some spot-on psycho-analysis. You're 100% right. Take a person like that our for a few drinks to loosen their tongues and you'll usually find a head full of snakes.
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