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Old July 11, 2014, 08:23 AM   #51
AK103K
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I think you'll find, a little DA practice and dry fire, will magically make the stiff and stagy disappear.

As you become more acquainted with it, and your muscle tone develops, I think youre going to find, the trigger will "seem" to have improved.
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Old July 11, 2014, 10:04 AM   #52
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by AK103K: I think you'll find, a little DA practice and dry fire, will magically make the stiff and stagy disappear.

As you become more acquainted with it, and your muscle tone develops, I think you're going to find, the trigger will "seem" to have improved.

^^^This. You see folks recommending substantial dry-firing all the time on gun forums to improve trigger pull. I often wonder how much of it is the trigger smoothing out or the finger getting stronger. Odds are, it's a little of both.
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Old July 11, 2014, 10:46 AM   #53
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I think you'll find, a little DA practice and dry fire, will magically make the stiff and stagy disappear.

As you become more acquainted with it, and your muscle tone develops, I think youre going to find, the trigger will "seem" to have improved.
That may be a good point, but I expect I will gravitate to the guns that have a nice feel to the trigger action. Otherwise, I will be naturally thinking about improving the guns that do not rather than adapting to them, as if DA was the only right way to shoot.
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Old July 11, 2014, 11:51 AM   #54
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I think its easier to find fault with the gun, than it is to accept that we might be the issue. Human nature I guess.

Its not so much about adapting to the gun, as it is about improving "you". Once you improve you, the little things you once thought were a big deal, are now basically insignificant, if you think about them at all.

Im just glad I learned my lesson early on, and didnt waste a lot of money on needless gunsmith bills.

I wasted it on more ammo and components.
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Old July 11, 2014, 12:23 PM   #55
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Getting an übersmooth and überlight action by a top 'smith may be a luxury, but a gun that needs an action job needs an action job. A gun with a bad action will never allow you to shoot to your potential. You might find ways to compensate for the bad trigger, but that's usually just adapting some poor technique to offset the action issues, and isn't doing you good in the long run.

Interestingly, when Brian Zinns, the great bullseye shooter, chose a gun recently, he chose the gun with a better trigger over the more inherently accurate gun.
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Old July 11, 2014, 12:48 PM   #56
AK103K
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but a gun that needs an action job needs an action job.
No doubt, but how many guns these days, do you see come with "horrid" or even "bad" triggers/actions?

Hey, I just had a thought! This isnt the logical path of least resistance, and the result of slipping into the XBox age (and trigger), is it?
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Old July 11, 2014, 01:30 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by AK103K
No doubt, but how many guns these days, do you see come with "horrid" or even "bad" triggers/actions?
Doesn't have to be horrid or even bad. IMO, it's a rare factory gun who's trigger can't be improved with a good action job, so depending on one's skill level and the quality of the gun's action, an action job can be a necessity or a luxury.

So while I agree completely there's no substitute for practice, I wouldn't agree that getting an action job is automatically a "needless" expense or a matter of trying to buy a better target.
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Old July 11, 2014, 05:14 PM   #58
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I have a half dozen DA revolvers . . . but . . . . I have mainly shot SA because I shot SA C & B revolvers since I was a kid. When shooting my DA Smiths and Colts I usually shoot SA most of the time - it has no effect on the revolver in terms of additional wear.

I do shoot my Smiths and Colts in DA as I figured it was time I learned to shoot them that way. At 61 . . . trust me . . . I'm still learning! I'm getting better but I'll still be more accurate shooting 'em in SA.

The only DA revolver that I really put a lot of practice in to as far shooting DA is my Smith Model 36 snub since that's what I usually carry for CCW.

If you're more comfortable shooting them in SA . . then go ahead and have at it. You aren't going to hurt them at all. But somewhere along the line . . . try the DA. I have gotten in to the hair of shooting at least a few cylinders full in DA every time I shoot.
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Old July 11, 2014, 07:17 PM   #59
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Single action shooting is for just having fun.
Incorrect. Single action shooting is for having fun and for careful aiming when you have the time and the situation demands accuracy. The whole "double action only" mantra is tiresome because it does not acknowledge the valid use of single action shooting in personal defense.
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Old July 11, 2014, 07:57 PM   #60
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"...Zinns...chose the gun with a better trigger over the more inherently accurate gun."

Someone once said that "it is not how good the gun you shoot, it is how good you shoot the gun." While no one can make a poor gun shoot well, there is a lot of truth there.

Jim
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Old July 12, 2014, 07:18 AM   #61
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Quote:
...when Brian Zinns, the great bullseye shooter, chose a gun recently,
he chose the gun with a better trigger over the more inherently
accurate gun.
I think that, as stated, conveys an 'inaccurate' impression.
He chose the weapon that -- as a man-machine system -- would deliver better accuracy.
The weapon's inherent accuracy was good enough that when combined with a precise triggering mechanism for the man, it became the best overall.



One of my several AR platforms over the years was chosen that very way. Armalite's factory trigger won me hands-down for the carbine.

Last edited by mehavey; July 12, 2014 at 07:38 AM.
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Old July 12, 2014, 08:57 AM   #62
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I think its easier to find fault with the gun, than it is to accept that we might be the issue. Human nature I guess.

Its not so much about adapting to the gun, as it is about improving "you". Once you improve you, the little things you once thought were a big deal, are now basically insignificant, if you think about them at all.

Im just glad I learned my lesson early on, and didnt waste a lot of money on needless gunsmith bills.

I wasted it on more ammo and components.
That's nice for you, rhetoric maybe, but if I don't bond with a gun, especially its accuracy and trigger, I get it worked on or I sell it. I have other nice choices. You cannot dispute that some guns are naturals, and those are the ones we'll shoot or seek out.
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Old July 12, 2014, 09:14 AM   #63
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You must have lost your moral fiber. I like shooting both ways, DA is more fun. Try shooting 6 straight with no stops then tell me which is more fun. My GP100 and Trooper love it as much as I do. But I will give the GP a trigger job.
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Old July 12, 2014, 11:55 AM   #64
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That's nice for you, rhetoric maybe, but if I don't bond with a gun, especially its accuracy and trigger, I get it worked on or I sell it. I have other nice choices. You cannot dispute that some guns are naturals, and those are the ones we'll shoot or seek out.
Perhaps its just one of those "see the light" things.

I shoot a lot of different type guns, and once you put a little time in with any of them, they all pretty much feel natural to shoot with. The only exception for me, is the current trend with some long guns, to have overly long stocks and higher combs, that make quick shouldering unnatural and a distraction.

They way I see it with improving "you", instead of the gun is, the more you improve you, the more you can deal with pretty much anything you pick up. If you only improve the gun, then thats what youre stuck with. What happens when you dont have your favorite "tuned piece", and are forced to use something else?
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Old July 12, 2014, 03:21 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K
They way I see it with improving "you", instead of the gun is, the more you improve you, the more you can deal with pretty much anything you pick up. If you only improve the gun, then thats what youre stuck with. What happens when you dont have your favorite "tuned piece", and are forced to use something else?
I understand your point, and agree, but not entirely:

First, shootin's shootin', and if you're a good shooter, you're a good shooter. Good shooters aren't rendered impotent without their "gamer" gear. That they are is a popular misconception, and/or a rationalization.

Second, having a good accurate gun with a smooth trigger and good sights is the quicker way to that goodness. Matter of fact, you may be more likely to have issues with other guns if you got "good" with a crappy gun, since you've likely developed compensating bad habits.
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Old July 12, 2014, 03:49 PM   #66
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I used to shoot mostly SA on my DA guns, but a while back I dedicated myself to learning DA shooting, especially since I got my S&W 642... I haven't a choice, it's DA only. I now greatly enjoy shooting DA and am now just as accurate as shooting SA with my guns.

Now, if I'm shooting one of my cap n' balls, it's single action because I don't own a Starr!!!
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Old July 13, 2014, 05:21 AM   #67
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Longtime DA revolver guy here.......most,if not all,advice concerning the finger's "stroke" in DA mode will see you "pulling through".And won't argue that.....but,if you learn to "stage" a DA trigger,and practice,it can rival SA in accuracy.

I really don't like the long "locktime" in SA......yes,it's manageable,but will stage DA "almost" everytime now when high precision or long shots require it.And will also say,that it(staging)made me a MUCH better pull though shooter.
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Old July 13, 2014, 06:46 AM   #68
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I really don't like the long "locktime" in SA
Suggests that the gun needs a trigger job to make the SA mode have a cleaner break.
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Old July 14, 2014, 04:46 AM   #69
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I always thought locktime to be,in miliseconds.....from the moment the trigger broke to ignition?So,it's irrespective of how hard the SA pull weight is?

And for the record,we have several guns with $$ professional action "jobs".
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Old July 14, 2014, 07:09 AM   #70
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The DA revolver was invented for a reason
As a combat weapon it was quicker to use that having to cock the trigger for each shot

My basic SD gun is a 65-5 3"
I had the hammer bobbed and converted to DAO
In SD mode you are going DA
In fact I am thinking of training to shoot one handed and stop the 2 handed method and quit the bad habit of staging
We are talking SD not target shooting

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Old July 14, 2014, 07:29 AM   #71
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I always thought locktime to be,in miliseconds.....from the moment the trigger broke to ignition?
Got it! That suggests that disliking perceptible locktime challenges those who say that steady pull through double action is more accurate and that staging, not 100% sure when the gun will fire, is a bad habit. If one has the skills to maintain sight picture throughout a DA squeeze, and to follow through, might he favor a gun that facilitates that?
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Old July 14, 2014, 02:07 PM   #72
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Real Gun(is that in reference to revo vs semi-auto,haha)........

I'm generally the odd guy,in that...I really do prefer a tuned Colt DA to a Smith.And we..."gots lots of each".Will even say that given proper loads,almost prefer fixed sights to adj.But WRT "staging" and it's merits...it,like individuals,boils down to that weapon...and that guy...on that day.

One of my favorite wheelguns is an old Python......bluing worn off,round count in the tens of thousands.Given most circumstances,I'll stage the trigger....and put small game in the pot.It's a squirrel and rabbit machine.Another Colt is a .22 Trooper.......it's got a cpl "hitches" in it's DA(too lazy to open her up,haha)....and will shoot it by staging as well,everytime.

Cpl Smith's of note......an old model 629 with a pro action tune that is the best of both worlds.The single action breaks at 3 1/2 pds and will shoot braggin groups.And DA,it's just as sweet,BUT....it definitely dosen't like staging.Another Smith that dosen't care to be staged is a K38.Everybody who shoots it(has been though by a "Smith guy"),loves it......I can shoot it way better SA than DA?

If I wanted to really buckle down on SA would use one of my Rugers......It's all good,best of luck,shop.
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Old July 14, 2014, 04:51 PM   #73
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small bone, pick, etc.

Quote:
With practice, one can shoot just as fast and more accurately SA as DA with an un-modified, out of the box double action revolver

This is utterly and patently untrue, and can be proven consistently and repeatedly.



'Specially if you need a reload, ay?
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Old July 15, 2014, 04:31 PM   #74
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actually it depends on the person. and their physical abilities.
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Old July 16, 2014, 06:15 PM   #75
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"actually it depends on the person. and their physical abilities"

It's one thing when people state, " I can shoot a double action revolver, just as fast and accurately, shooting single action, (cocking the hammer for each shot and pulling the trigger) as someone shooting it double action. Someone will think this when they are playing around at the range.

But, when you actually put it to the test in competition, timing the shooter and scoring targets, you find that the good shooters are all shooting double action. None are shooting single action, with double action revolvers, even for occasional more difficult shots. USPSA and ICORE are both action handgun sports. You have to find a balance of speed and accuracy. The balance is tipped a little more towards speed in USPSA and more towards accuracy in ICORE. But you still have to be fast and accurate in both. Mark
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