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Old June 3, 2014, 06:06 PM   #1
hlds54
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Anyone use pcc for home defense?

I do not own any pistol caliber carbines, but they're on my list. I can see where they would have good potential in the HD scenario. Especially for smaller statured people ( children, some women, elderly), and given it would have light recoil, light weight, and good capacity.
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Old June 3, 2014, 06:38 PM   #2
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My primary home defense is a Beretta CX4 Storm in 9mm, with a Bushnell TRS Red Dot, and two 20rd mags ready to go. It's shorter overall than a M4, little easier to move within the house.
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Old June 4, 2014, 05:51 AM   #3
loose_holster_dan
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i don't really see the point. you aren't gaining much indoors going to a carbine in a pistol caliber over just having a pistol, and you're making it far more unwieldy around corners and through door ways. full size 9mm pistols hold around 19rnds. full size 45acp pistols hold 15. carbine mags aren't much bigger.

if you want something carbine length with some advantage, go with a pistol grip shotgun. if you're worried about 12ga recoil, use a 20ga. my little brother used to wield his 20ga pump with no issues at age 8. i wielded my 12ga without issue at 10.
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Old June 4, 2014, 06:11 AM   #4
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Mine are not my main defensive long arms, but I do keep a mag loaded that will fit... My wife likes shooting the 9mms better than the .223s, so I guess I have her in mind.

Unless the Z-movies are really documentaries, it will probably never be a factor.
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Old June 4, 2014, 11:20 AM   #5
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Yes, but it's not the primary firearm. My .223 ARs are last in the line of options because they have muzzle brakes on them and I suspect that touching one of the off in my house would result in instant deafness. My AR-9 is nowhere near that level of loudness.
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Old June 8, 2014, 09:45 AM   #6
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Find a USGI M1 Carbine for HD.

Detailed and lubed, fit the buttstock pouch and you have two mags ready for use, easy to handle and loaded with soft-nose ammo a good choice.

If need be the feed ramp MAY need some light polishing to minimize stuttering of soft-nose ammo.

Only other option would be a .357 rifle using .38Spl rounds.
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Old June 8, 2014, 11:01 AM   #7
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a PCC would be my second choice. I go for handguns first. however over other carbine long arms, PCCs have less chance of over penetration, less muzzle flash, and much quieter. I feel like ripping off an AR15 or AK47 in an enclosed space would be like dropping a flash bang at your feet.
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Old June 8, 2014, 11:09 AM   #8
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Good point about the noise factor.
My "go to" is a .45 1911. It's loud as are all firearms fired inside a building/room but it's less a damaging, ear splitting crack, of something like a short bbl'd .38 or .357.
A long gun can be problematic manipulating inside a room I'd think.
Then there is the very remote possibility of a gun grab by a perp.
That said, in my experience, most perps are cowards & would
run like a bunny at the thought of a home owner shooting them.
A great defense is a really nervous, light sleeping, dog.
I gotta get me a nice house pouch.
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Old June 10, 2014, 09:05 PM   #9
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I agree Jeajer, 45 auto would be my choice . A small dog is also great for a alarm,but I think my dog would just run to his kennel. I guess with someone's family at stake ringing ears wouldnt be a thought at the time. But certainly lenght of firearm is something to consider.
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Old June 10, 2014, 10:38 PM   #10
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Im building a 10.5" 9mm AR. This month i should be able to pick up the can for it and Viola. A super quiet fast handeling carbine.

I tried using my 9" 300 blackout with my SDN-6 can but Sub-sonic ammo is not going to expand and tends to over penetrate. Supersonic ammo is still pretty loud indoors

So i got a 9mm upper for the SBR. With my Octane supressor its about the same length as a standard AR but totally hearing safe indoors

A Glock pistol is the first go to, but if i get a chance to get to a longgun. This should be the one
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Old June 11, 2014, 12:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahunua001
however over other carbine long arms, PCCs have less chance of over penetration
It's actually the exact opposite; a PPC will penetrate far more through walls than any defensive .223 round will.
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Old June 11, 2014, 03:48 PM   #12
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interesting considering that from a handgun there are a heckuva lot of shooters that claim that they don't feel comfortable with 9mm because of it's poor penetration but if a person just adds that extra 100 FPS or so and it penetrates more than military type rifle cartridges designed to punch through heavy clothing and body armor?
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Old June 11, 2014, 05:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahunua001
interesting considering that from a handgun there are a heckuva lot of shooters that claim that they don't feel comfortable with 9mm because of it's poor penetration but if a person just adds that extra 100 FPS or so and it penetrates more than military type rifle cartridges designed to punch through heavy clothing and body armor?
It's not just out of a PCC; even out of a short-barreled handgun a 9mm hollow-point will penetrate through more walls than a defensive .223 round. The reason is that a high-velocity lightweight bullet like a .223 soft- or hollow-point ends up fragmenting rapidly in drywall, and those small fragments lose energy very quickly. But a handgun bullet (even a JHP) or buckshot pellet isn't going fast enough to fragment, and therefore it keeps its energy longer and penetrates farther through walls.

That's why police are moving away from PCCs and shotguns and using .223 rifles a lot more: The .223 is better at penetrating stuff like body armor, but it over-penetrates less through walls.

Here's one article that references FBI tests on .223 penetration.

And here's the results of a test where the author set up three simulated walls and shot at them.
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Old June 11, 2014, 06:30 PM   #14
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My CX4 has a lot cleaner lines than my awkward AR. Simple controls and has an actual reciprocating bolt handle.

My normal range loads clock at 1250fps out of the longer barrel, so I imagine a SD round would be pushing 1400fps.
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Old June 11, 2014, 07:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
a PCC would be my second choice. I go for handguns first. however over other carbine long arms, PCCs have less chance of over penetration, less muzzle flash, and much quieter. I feel like ripping off an AR15 or AK47 in an enclosed space would be like dropping a flash bang at your feet.
PCC's would only be 'quieter' than rifles. It all depends on the weapon and type of muzzle device. Modern flash hiders like the AAC 3-prong have been proven to reduce almost all of the flash. Even the A2 birdcage is decent in reducing the flash for the shooter.
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Old June 11, 2014, 07:18 PM   #16
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PCC have their place

Theohazard is absolutly correct. A light weight varmint or dedicated defensive round out of a 14" or longer barrel penetrates far less building material then a pistol round

As the barrel gets shorter and velocity drops the bullets tend to hold together better and start to over penetrate. Not to mention the loss of terminal effectiveness.

Thats why the 300 blackout round has become so popular in the short barrel guns. Its less dependent on super high velocity for effectiveness

I was going that way but didnt get the desired noise reduction with a supressor and supersonic loading or the terminal ballistics i wanted out of sub sonic loadings

So, im building a 9mm AR and will run a can on it. Very quite, even indoors. A good 9mm SD round will only get better out of the 10.5" barrel on this gun. Easier to hit with then a pistol down long hallways. High mass for the caliber makes follow up shots easy. Large mag capacity (32 rds) means i can be generous in lead dosage

Even for someone that trains religiously, handguns are HARD to shoot under stress. The avg homeowner DOES NOT practice and train anywhere near the levels to be unconsciously competent under stress

A pistol caliber carbine is a much easier weapon to actually use.

Back in the day, a bunch of us instructors were messing around with the Front Sight Handgun Combat Masters test after a day of subgun training. I decided to shoot the Handgun Masters test with a Uzi (think pistol cal carbine). A test that is HARD with a handgun was EASY to shoot CLEAN with the PCC. Maybe not the end all test but it showed emphatically how much easier it is to shoot at SD distances with a PCC
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Old June 11, 2014, 07:30 PM   #17
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But a handgun bullet (even a JHP) or buckshot pellet isn't going fast enough to fragment, and therefore it keeps its energy longer and penetrates farther through walls.
really?
9mm sierra 115gr JHP fired from a 9mm carbine at a distance of 35 yards.


as for volumes not being quieter, there is a huge difference between a 5.56 AR or a 7.62x39 AK and a 9mm or 45ACP carbine.
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Old June 11, 2014, 09:24 PM   #18
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Yep, a 9mm carbine is lot "quieter" than a 9mm handgun too.

If you handload, you can get frangible bullets pretty easily and that will eliminate penetration issues.
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Old June 11, 2014, 10:52 PM   #19
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i have two pistol caliber rifiles that i bought in hopes of home defense, but i still dont feel comfortable w/o a pistol nearby, you cant just pick up a carbine and point and shoot with the spped and discreetness that you can a pistol

i do keep a carbine handy for bumps in the night, but unless i am alerted to the threat early on, i think relying on the rifle would be asking for trouble
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Old June 12, 2014, 01:56 AM   #20
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Quote:
tahunua001: 9mm sierra 115gr JHP fired from a 9mm carbine at a distance of 35 yards.
What medium did that bullet pass through?
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Old June 12, 2014, 01:58 AM   #21
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In my case, a Marlin 1894 in .357. It's a bit quieter than a revolver running the same loads.
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Old June 12, 2014, 03:37 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahunua001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
But a handgun bullet (even a JHP) or buckshot pellet isn't going fast enough to fragment, and therefore it keeps its energy longer and penetrates farther through walls.
really?
9mm sierra 115gr JHP fired from a 9mm carbine at a distance of 35 yards.
That's not the kind of complete fragmentation that I'm talking about; notice that a large piece of that 9mm bullet is still intact. And I doubt that round was fired through drywall. And regardless, even if a 9mm JHP manages to fragment in walls, a .223 defensive load will fragment more, dump its energy faster, and therefore penetrate less.

What I wrote in post #13 is established fact. Countless tests have proven this. And if you don't believe those tests I linked, look up others. Or try it yourself.

It's simply a myth that a handgun round will penetrate less through walls than a defensive .223 round. And it's a well-debunked myth at that.
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Old June 13, 2014, 04:43 PM   #23
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I've thought about getting a Keltec Sub-2000 in 9mm from time to time but just haven't done so. I think of it as more of a "car gun" but could see it doing double duty for home defense. Right now, though, I'm using a shotgun in addition to a couple of handguns.

A 9mm in +P would still not match the velocity of the M1 Carbine but there's more modern ammo in 9mm. It would be more accurate than a handgun at ranges up to maximum "defense" ranges in an urban home defense situation -- up to 25 or 30 yards.
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Old June 14, 2014, 11:11 AM   #24
tahunua001
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there's more modern ammo in 9mm
really? I just got 400 rounds of 9mm ammo, half of that was gold dots. no modern ammo left indeed.
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Old June 14, 2014, 08:15 PM   #25
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really? I just got 400 rounds of 9mm ammo, half of that was gold dots. no modern ammo left indeed.
You misunderstand. I'm talking about fewer "modern" bullet designs available in in .30 Carbine. Most ammo made for that caliber is FMJ or soft points. There are not as many choices in .30 Carbine as there are in 9mm where there are a ton of options in differently designed bullets.
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