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Old June 7, 2014, 08:49 AM   #51
Clark
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When I started reading a gun list rec.guns on usenet on a Sun workstation at work in 1992, I thought everything I read was too extravagant.
But on issue by issue I came around.
Leupold scopes cost over $100, that was nuts, but within a few years, I owned one.
Cheap bullets
Cheap barrels
Cheap stocks
Cheap dies

All of those can get eliminated with 3 shot groups.

And now after 22 years of reading Bart's posts that I need more than 3 shots in a group... I am now realizing why I have never been able to measure an improvement from my current list of wasted effort:

1) True the action face
2) true the inner C ring
3) lap the lugs
4) true the bolt face
5) chase the threads
6) speed up the lock time
7) glass bed the action
8) pillar bed the action
9) get a 1 ounce trigger
10) turn the case necks
11) weigh the brass
12) de burr the flash holes
13) weigh each powder charge
14) try different powders
15) use benchrest primers
16) lap the scope rings.
17) Dial in bore when chambering
18) re crown the muzzle

But if I shot 20 shot groups, I could probably move at least one more accuracy ritual from the waste of time column to the part of my act column.
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Old June 7, 2014, 10:42 AM   #52
1stmar
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Bart that was an able target. Not sure of the dimensions. Just to be clear 200 yard slow fire, 5 shots. Same as every other grunt. :-)
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Old June 7, 2014, 03:52 PM   #53
Bart B.
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1stmar, yes the old "A" target with a 12" 5 ring, 24" 4 ring and 36" 3 ring for use at 200 and 300 yards. It originally had a 6" V ring in the middle but that got changed to 4" later on.

It was first used about 1900 or the 1890's along with the "B" 500 and 600 yard target and the "C" 800 through 1000 yard target. They gave way to the current decimal targets in the late 1960's with smaller scoring rings; thanks to the better accuracy of the 7.62mm NATO round.
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Old June 7, 2014, 03:57 PM   #54
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Much less amazing :-)..
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Old June 7, 2014, 05:04 PM   #55
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So clearing it means hitting the targets and they drop? Thanks.

-TL
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Old June 7, 2014, 07:15 PM   #56
Longshot4
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I am always looking to tighten the group weather it was pitching base ball, passing a football, flinging a pointed stick, slug, or bullet. My rifles are my present and longest challenge. I don't have the funds to buy the most expensive equipment but I love the challenge. My will to shoot small groups keeps me challenged. I don't see a reason to not try to improve as far as my 222 and 22 K Hornet are concerned. These rifles have amassed me as to what they are capable of. The challenge is to be capable of repeating and improving the groups. I find that my Old 700 can still use tuning. The cases continue to be challenging to prep. I want the most accurate rounds to improve my shooting without a rest... I always do my best for accuracy. Hay Why not.
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Old June 7, 2014, 07:35 PM   #57
1stmar
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Tangolima - all bulls

Last edited by 1stmar; June 7, 2014 at 07:59 PM.
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Old June 7, 2014, 07:36 PM   #58
loic
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With my rifle its never enough, once I get the group I want at a certain distance then I move the target further away, it is endless...LoL
With my handgun I just practice at 25 yards and try to it my 10 " plate at every shot, which I cant do but im working on it....
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Old June 8, 2014, 03:43 AM   #59
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For me its all about 5 shots in 1 hole..havent done it yet but I keep trying and if and when I do it I too will move the target out another hundred and keep trying
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Old June 8, 2014, 06:42 AM   #60
Sarge
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Y'all are way over my head... 3 shots/1 MOA to 300 yards with top end 30-06 reloads and I am happy as a clam.
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Old June 8, 2014, 09:05 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4runnerman
Unclenick- not sure what you mean?
I think I misunderstood what you were saying in #45 where you mentioned that you see people with off-center groups at the range all the time. I took that to mean you thought they were doing something wrong while trying to zero, but it seems you meant the opposite; that they were developing loads. Sorry for the misread.
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Old June 8, 2014, 10:25 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stmar View Post
Tangolima - all bulls
4" @ 200 yards off hand. That's probably the best shooting I know of. Good job!

-TL
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Old June 8, 2014, 10:52 AM   #63
BumbleBug
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It's all about confidence...

Thanks Magnum Wheel Man for starting what has turned out to be such an insightful thread! I found Unclenicks, Barts & Clarks responses very informative as well as interesting.

Like many here have commented, I like as small a "bumble-bug" group as possible - a never ending quest which makes this a fascinating hobby. For hunting deer size game & up, I realize that extreme accuracy is not necessary. If you buy a bargain Remchester/scope package & a box of factories, sight in over the hood of the truck, you can be as good or better hunter as any. But there is definitely a mental game to shooting. I find that if I "know" my hunting rifle shoots 1/2 to 3/4 MOA & is precisely zeroed by me, it greatly boosts my confidence on making the shot. To each his own, but that's what drives me as to "what is good enough".

...bug
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Old June 8, 2014, 12:16 PM   #64
Bart B.
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TL, the bullseye he mentioned is 12 inches diameter and is worth 5 points. That 4 inch V ring worth 5 points is used to break ties. A 50-6V score is a clean with six V's. It outscores a 50-5V score.
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Old June 8, 2014, 12:55 PM   #65
Jimro
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I used to chase the "one ragged hole" with load development. I don't anymore, now I focus more on my marksmanship than what the rifle can inherently do rested on a bench or sandbagged.

For a bolt rifle anything MOA or under is good. Once I reach that level of accuracy from the bench I load up as much of that as I have components for and shoot it until I'm done with that lot.

For a semi auto rifle, 1.5 MOA or under is the squeal point. That's a 3" group at 200 yards, and while it isn't impressive as some groups, it is more than enough for me to compete or hunt with.

But either way, with that level of inherent accuracy in the rifle/load combination, it is enough that I can't blame my equipment for a bad shot.

Of course to get better with centerfire rifles, I've turned to air rifle and rimfires for the bulk of my training. You can do everything but get experience reading the wind conditions. If I were going to compete in F Class I'd specify a 0.5 MOA load for my bolt rifles, but only because that game is "belly benchrest" to some extent.

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Old June 8, 2014, 03:56 PM   #66
tangolima
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B. View Post
TL, the bullseye he mentioned is 12 inches diameter and is worth 5 points. That 4 inch V ring worth 5 points is used to break ties. A 50-6V score is a clean with six V's. It outscores a 50-5V score.
Oh. 6 moa that is. That is still excellent for off hand. The best I did was 8" out 100 yards with a m1 carbine. It would be close to 20" at 200 yards.

Thanks for explaining, Bart.

-TL
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Old June 9, 2014, 02:37 PM   #67
WESHOOT2
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handgun only, iron sights

My skills have deteriorated with age.

Now I'm only able to hit the showers
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Old June 10, 2014, 05:31 PM   #68
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Accuracy

This is the advice I give to people who ask this question. I ask them if they want to drive tacks at 1,000 yards or if they want to hit an 8 or 10 inch kill zone on an elk or other big game at some reasonable distance? If you want to drive tacks, prepare yourself for a lot of reading and asking questions but remember, for most of us, regardless of what type of shooting we do, the reading is fun and educational because that's part of reloading and we wouldn't reload if those things aren't there.
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Old June 10, 2014, 06:27 PM   #69
Longshot4
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I injoy shooting aspirins glued to a board from a bench. Also drop a goat out beyond 300 Yds from a kneel. It's all the same when I am in tune with my rifle. Even deer at 100 Yds off hand with my 44 super black hawk. I Love the handload challenges.
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Old June 10, 2014, 08:09 PM   #70
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Elimination of variables, or better said reduction of variables is a practical idea in chasing precision in shooting.
Eliminate the human as much as possible by using a bench and bags for the purpose of load development or changes made to the rifle. This is the rail gun part where you discover what your load work is doing. Shots taken under a common condition with a solid repeatable rest until your gear is capable of precision.
Then apply the human and trust your gun and load work. At least now you know where the problem lies.
This method has worked for me as I have brought common sporters to be the best they could be no matter how poorly I shoot them.
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Old June 10, 2014, 09:08 PM   #71
Bart B.
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Quote:
Elimination of variables, or better said reduction of variables is a practical idea in chasing precision in shooting.
Well said.

Which it's best to asses accuracy by the largest group shot. They're the ones that show what happens when all the variables add up in the same direction. One hole groups have no variables at all or they've all been cancelled out just right.
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Old June 11, 2014, 07:35 AM   #72
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What is good enough for me? ans: When I am done with attempts to make it better and sure I have rung-out all that's possible given the gear and talent applied.

I think the most common mistake in tweeking a setup is making more than one change at a time. You can't evaluate but one thing at a time. Another is not trying an old tired and true scope. I have bolted on new scopes that did not hold zero, something like that will drive you nuts. Ever manufacturer makes a few bad ones.
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Old July 7, 2014, 07:05 PM   #73
loic
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I went late morning to the desert to the "long distance range" . Zeroed at 100 yards, once I was pleased with my 5 rds shot:
I moved back to 1000 yards. I never shot that distance before, the farthest I shot was 600 yards . I got to the 1k yards, guestimated 3 full turn up on my scope, took a shot but was still too low, did one more full turn up and was close to the steel target but about 5 feet to the right. I adjusted again and many shots were very close and many not so close...LoL after about 30 rds I hit my 10 inch steel target. I was laughing by myself in the middle of the desert...LoL.
Rifle is a Remington 700 sps varmint in 22-250. The only change is the stock, hs precision stock.



Here's the steel plate .
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Old July 10, 2014, 04:48 PM   #74
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It depends on the rifle for me, and I don't like fussing over ammo. Don't like weighing individual components or fussing too much over brass. I keep my headstamps sorted and trimmed, and I find a load that shoots well with charges dropped straight from the powdermeasure.

For a hunting rifle, I like 2minutes or better. For my highpower competition rifle, I'm looking for 10 shot strings that will shoot about a minute.
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