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Old May 4, 2014, 11:55 PM   #1
skydancer
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Is it C&R

At what point do they become C&R?:
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Old May 5, 2014, 02:01 AM   #2
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Thought it was something like 50 years.
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Old May 5, 2014, 02:04 AM   #3
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A quick google search found this on the ATF website.

Firearms Curios or Relics List

A regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR Section 478.11, defines C&R firearms as those "which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons."

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
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Old May 5, 2014, 12:47 PM   #4
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Of course there are many, many exceptions to the vague "50-year rule". Such as the pre-1965 1911, Hi-Power, P08, P1/P38, S&W/Colt revolvers, AR-15, and many other still viable handguns and long guns. Many of these firearms are of very special interest to collectors but still can fire popular ammunition and perform quite admirably.
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Old May 5, 2014, 05:46 PM   #5
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The "50-year rule" applies to all guns, across the board, made before (as of now) May 5, 1964. That does include machine guns; those are still under the NFA, but the C&R status means they can be shipped directly to a C&R license holder without going through a Class 3 dealer.

Guns less than 50 years old can be declared by BATFE to be C&R IF an application has been made and approved to declare them as such. BATFE will honor the request if the gun or group of guns is museum certified, or "derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event." Those guns approved as C&R will be listed in the next C&R list update, or BATFE will provide the status on request.

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Old May 6, 2014, 11:29 AM   #6
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I have been told....

That, although BATFE still recognizes their list, they do not intend to keep it updated.

They are going to rely upon the list as it is and the 50 year rule.

That was hearsay and I have no form of verification.

Tnx,
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Old May 7, 2014, 05:44 PM   #7
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That may be, but if they continue to honor requests for guns to be given C&R status, they will have to at least respond to inquiries, even if they don't publish an actual list. Often dealers who acquire unusual guns request that BATFE declare them C&R's; unless BATFE simply stops responding to such requests (and AFAIK they have not), the dealer is not going to wait 50 years so he can sell the guns as C&R.

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Old May 7, 2014, 09:35 PM   #8
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Doc Hoy That, although BATFE still recognizes their list, they do not intend to keep it updated.

They are going to rely upon the list as it is and the 50 year rule.

That was hearsay and I have no form of verification.


Quote:
Curio and Relic List – Regular Updates

In our continuing efforts to provide the latest information on firearms added to the ATF Curios or Relics (C&R) List (ATF P 5300.11), we are providing regular C&R List updates. These updates may be accessed under the “Publications” link appearing under Firearms on this Web page.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/fire...ics/index.html
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Old May 7, 2014, 10:40 PM   #9
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The main issue you will deal with when purchasing C&Rs thru interstate commerce is the ignorance of a number of sellers.

As the internet and auction sites opened up an entirely new world for collectors, you will find sellers who are clueless on C&Rs. Even if the gun is on the list and well over 50 years old, there are sellers who will not sell to a C&R and insist on a 01 FFL only.

Unless the seller states the gun is C&R eligible, best contact seller before you bid/buy to make sure he will sell/ship to a C&R.
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Old May 7, 2014, 11:00 PM   #10
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Tom, apparently their "continuing effort" stopped in 2010, as that is the date of the latest update. It is possible that they have received no applications since then, but it seems unlikely to me.

But let me reiterate - BATFE does not add to the C&R list on their own. It will be done only in response to a request.

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Old May 10, 2014, 10:45 PM   #11
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There are a multitude of reason some fils won't ship to c&r. Many aren't simply ignorant. Not that their reasons are good, but they often know it is legal.
I've also run into a few willing to ship guns that have manufacture dates both sides of the line. I ask for info to date a gun and get a "these are all c&r" response when I know they are not.
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Old May 11, 2014, 01:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
I've also run into a few willing to ship guns that have manufacture dates both sides of the line. I ask for info to date a gun and get a "these are all c&r" response when I know they are not.
So what is the penalty to the C&R holder should he UN-knowingly receives a gun that is non-C&R (by say a couple of years) from a seller?

What about knowingly receiving?
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Old May 11, 2014, 10:17 PM   #13
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I would contact the seller and ask specifically if the gun is a C&R; if he replies that it is, I would ask for a copy of the document or statement from BATFE that says so.

If the seller can't or won't provide an answer, contact BATFE and ask if the gun is on their C&R list. If it is, no problem. If it is not, describe the situation and ask them what to do. It is extremely unlikely that any effort will be made to prosecute or even to seize the gun. If they make nasty noises, then consult an attorney, but I doubt anything like that will happen.

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Old June 5, 2014, 09:42 PM   #14
gyvel
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Of course there are many, many exceptions to the vague "50-year rule". Such as the pre-1965 1911, Hi-Power, P08, P1/P38, S&W/Colt revolvers, AR-15, and many other still viable handguns and long guns. Many of these firearms are of very special interest to collectors but still can fire popular ammunition and perform quite admirably.
As Jim K stated, any gun that is 50 or older is now considered a C&R, regardless of whether it still chambers modern ammo or not. Thus, by BATF rules, it is possible to now have that Smith that was made in 1964 as a C&R, but you will have to wait until next year to get its younger brother that was made in '65.

20 years from now (if we are still allowed to own firearms) some Glocks will become C&Rs.
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Old June 7, 2014, 12:29 PM   #15
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There is nothing at all "vague" about the 50-year rule, except to remember that it applies to the date of manufacture of the individual gun, not to the model number or date of introduction. More "vague" is the situation that some guns newer than that can be on the C&R list, but the information has not been published and is available only by asking BATFE. The post-WWII P1/P38 pistol is a good example; the published lists don't show it, but the importers say it is a C&R, presumably because they asked that it be declared a C&R.

Jim
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