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Old May 25, 2014, 11:17 AM   #1
ezmiraldo
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Why is it that when I see the video of the Santa Barbara mass murderer...

I (and probably many of you) immediately think of getting a better CCW or getting more ammo or getting better training with our CCW to be able to protect against such violent nut-jobs, but when people outside of the gun community (and especially the gun control folks) see this video they probably immediately think about banning guns?

I don't think that gun folks and anti-gun folks are inherently different in how intelligent they are or in how much they care about their society or in how sincere they are. (Let's assume this for the sake of this discussion - I know many of you have a big problem assuming that - but let's try). So, what's driving this divergence in paths to completely different solutions for the same problem? Any thoughts? Let's try to keep it civil and give benefit of the doubt to the gun control crowd, just to have a thought-provoking and intellectual discussion.
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Old May 25, 2014, 11:25 AM   #2
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Because this: http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2...reactions.html

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Old May 25, 2014, 12:01 PM   #3
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This is worth what you paid for it.

First, there is an antipathy towards guns based on their being political totems. Ownership is a symbol of a political world view that many don't agree with. Thus, gun ownership is tarred with that brush and arguments for it are discarded as just the rantings of an unacceptable world view. Gun ownership is litmus test like climate change, abortion, gay rights, etc. You have to accept view A or B to fit into the polarized political groupings. Logic on each position is absent as you engage in selective information processing and confirmation bias demanded by your tribe.

Getting past that to the issue of violence. Most reasonable people want to see less violence and people protected. In fact, it is argued that we have tendency to want to avoid interpersonal violence. It has to be overcome in most of us to engage in such or it is engaged in folks who have no such inhibitions due to some kind of mental illness.

Given we want to reduce violence - do you do it by increasing the tools of violence or training to do such? Many folks cannot accept that and feel that violence can be reduced by removing the common tools of the most extreme violence. In our times that would be firearms. If we eliminate them - then we will be safer. Since one abhors violence, getting an instrument for violence and training for its use is unacceptable.

That is what drives many. I don't buy the argument that most antigunners want to control you, etc. Certainly, the progun world has a high correlation with folks who want to control all kinds of social interactions.

On the other, thinking gun folks have realized that while violence is apriori bad, preparing for its use is justified as it is needed to protect oneself and those you care about from evil and to protect against tyranny. One wishes that it wasn't necessary but it is. Such thinking folks will actually take the time to train and try to be conscientious proponents for gun rights.

Within each population, there are the emotional - many folks are driven by that as compared to reason. We see the short term and immediate hatred of gun rights as by that poor father who lost his kid in Santa Barbara. Or we see long term but emotional hatred by Feinstein or Bloomberg.

In the gun world - we see the foolish OC posturing at Chipolte - that is probably driven not by rational thought processes but posturing and immaturity. They view the gun as a super power to make them seem 'tough' or 'macho'. The emotional ranting against those who don't support such demonstrations as a test of RKBA purity is from that realm of the progun world. It's not rational.

Thus to summarize:

You have emotion - guns evil, I'm a tough guy.
You have rational - how do we deal with violence and tyranny? Preparing for more of it to suppress the evilly motivated violence or try to eliminate the tools of violence.

PS - I didn't discuss the sporting use of guns as I regard that as irrelevant to the modern gun rights debate and the Constitutional arguments.
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Old May 25, 2014, 02:10 PM   #4
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Glen, that was a very thoughtful post.
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Old May 25, 2014, 02:19 PM   #5
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Preparing for more of it to suppress the evilly motivated violence or try to eliminate the tools of violence.
The problem is, the first one is difficult, and the second makes for easy politics.

They're already circling the wagons and blaming the NRA for this. We'll see more rhetoric and teeth-gnashing about banning guns, but we won't see that conversation about mental illness that keeps being deferred.

That said, many of us make the claim that if we'd been there, we could have done something. Given that people like Rodger choose soft targets, that's not always a valid argument.
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Old May 25, 2014, 02:53 PM   #6
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The Librals motto never let a good disaster go to waste . In truth the shooter is to blame and as in most of these cases his family and others knew he would do something like this . When one of these crimes happen I have started getting my firearms out and cleaning them mabe go out to my shooting bench and shoot a while . Just like we can't let terrorist change the way we live in this Country we can't let criminals denie the rest of us our rights that our forfathers have fought fought for . U.S.A love it or leave it .
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Old May 25, 2014, 04:19 PM   #7
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Just like we can't let terrorist change the way we live in this Country we can't let criminals denie the rest of us our rights that our forfathers have fought fought for . U.S.A love it or leave it .
Terrorist have changed the way we live in this country.
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Old May 25, 2014, 05:22 PM   #8
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In case you needed additional proof that news media is anti gun

This psycho kills people using guns and knives, maims people using his car, and fantasizes about torturing them using boiling water and by skinning them, and media call him "shooter"! Huh!? Why single out shooting? Why not accurately describe him as a mentally unstable man who went on a murder spree? If that's too long, how about just "serial killer"?

Here's the evidence: Headlines from some of the most popular news organizations (copied Sunday evening - when it was already well established and publicized that gun was not the only weapon used by this piece of scum).
  • CNN : "Police visited gunman's house before"
  • CNN: "Opinion: U.S. gun violence sickness"
  • LA Times: "Frantic parents of shooting suspect raced to Isla Vista during rampage"
  • Washington Post: "Sheriff: Calif. shooter flew ‘under the radar’"
  • Washington Post"Students' reactions to shootings"
  • New York Times: "California Gunman Flew Under Radar, Sheriff Says"
  • FoxNews: "VIDEO: Police investigating mental history of shooter"
  • FoxNews: "Shooting rampage called 'premeditated mass murder'"

If this is not "clear and convincing" proof "beyond any reasonable doubt" of media's anti-gun bias (intentional or unintentional), I don't know what is...

Wow! Just wow!
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Old May 25, 2014, 05:24 PM   #9
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Terrorist have changed the way we live in this country.
We're drifting. Please stick to the topic at hand.
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Old May 25, 2014, 05:29 PM   #10
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We need MORE proof????
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Old May 25, 2014, 05:30 PM   #11
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Ok
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Old May 25, 2014, 05:35 PM   #12
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I guess I never paid attention to it before...
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Old May 25, 2014, 05:41 PM   #13
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Also the recent stabbing rampages, the one at a school near Pittsburgh, the murder rampage in Canada, have thrown the anti-gun crowd on the defensive. They need another mass shooting to get their campaign back on track.
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Old May 25, 2014, 05:51 PM   #14
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Also the recent stabbing rampages, the one at a school near Pittsburgh, the murder rampage in Canada, have thrown the anti-gun crowd on the defensive.
Are you sure? I haven't really noticed them on the defensive about anything lately.
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Old May 25, 2014, 06:23 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo
They're already circling the wagons and blaming the NRA for this.
Yes ... despite the reality that his three housemates were killed by stabbing, and I believe some of the other assaults were automotive run-downs.

Which means that, in addition to guns, we now need to ban knives and assault BMWs, as well as castigate the AAA.
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Old May 25, 2014, 06:45 PM   #16
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....

I think people look to support a solution they are familiar with.

I believe the vast majority (not everyone, just most) of the people in this country today are not familiar with very much outside their narrow field of expertise (if they have one) ..... and are largely ignorant of pretty much everything else- be it plumbing, electricity, automechanics, carpentry, IT issues, or in this case, personal security ...... whatever. If they have an issue, they call on someone whose JOB IT IS to solve such an issue. Pipe leaks? Call a plumber. Fan making a strange noise? Call an electrician........

They are an Accountant, Sales Rep, Loan Officer, Sanitaiton Engineer, or whatever ..... they pay huge portions of their income to have Government take care of their Security issues ..... Government will take care of them, because that's what we pay them for, right? ...... and like any Organization, Government does not like competition ...... you taking care of your own security undermines the percieved need for their services ...... of course they want a Monopoly of Force.



I don't think I have that kind of faith in Government ..... I am an individual and trust myself (known quantity) more than someone some else hired (unknown quantity).
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Old May 25, 2014, 06:49 PM   #17
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Gun control and shootings are the hot topic. Stabbing deaths and vehicular homicide are not the rage these days so they get little attention. Everyone thinks they should be able to use a knife in some way and be able to drive a car so there is no anti-knife / anti-vehicle agenda so we don't need to publicize that aspect of the tragedy.
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Old May 25, 2014, 08:03 PM   #18
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Gun control and shootings are the hot topic. Stabbing deaths and vehicular homicide are not the rage these days so they get little attention. Everyone thinks they should be able to use a knife in some way and be able to drive a car so there is no anti-knife / anti-vehicle agenda so we don't need to publicize that aspect of the tragedy.
The answer to this is simple: take people shooting. Dispell the ignorance. Make gun ownership and self reliance the norm, instead of the exception.
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Old May 25, 2014, 08:18 PM   #19
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A lot of people do not realize that the police are too busy to protect all of them so they feel that there is no reason to have a gun. The police will protect me and there are markets to feed me so there is no reason for me to own any gun.

However more and more police administrators are advising to have a means to protect yourselves as they can't do it. (excluding NYC & Chicago) There are even Supreme Court decisions saying the police have no duty to protect you or come to your aid.
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Old May 26, 2014, 06:01 AM   #20
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The media wants a big controversy framed in a simple narrative. It is easier for them to exploit the sentiments of both pro, and anti-gun people than look for answers beyond restricting firearm ownership. I think that's why we always read and hear guns described as the problem and always in the hands of "a troubled young man."

No, he was a pathetic loser. There are plenty of young men who struggle with mental illness and rejection without resorting to violence. I wish the media was as willing to describe a person as a pathetic loser as they are to describe a gun as an assault weapon.
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Old May 26, 2014, 10:11 AM   #21
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A lot of people do not realize that the police are too busy to protect all of them
Part of this is the failed belief that we can somehow control the world around us. If we simply ban certain products or pass enough laws we’ll be OK. A lot of folks simply do not want to accept how little control we really have over things around us. Regardless of your belief system you need to realize that evil exist and we’ll never be rid of it.
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Old May 26, 2014, 10:18 AM   #22
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this is not a gun issue,its a deranged person issue...he went out on purpose to kill and get attention..now he is where he belongs,under 6 feet of dirt...
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Old May 26, 2014, 10:20 AM   #23
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this is not a gun issue,its a deranged person issue...he went out on purpose to kill and get attention..now he is where he belongs,under 6 feet of dirt...
I will note that he is also, for a short time, where he wanted to be: on TV ...... he wanted attention, and got it.

Sadly, he saw no distinction between "Famous" and "Infamous" .....
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Old May 26, 2014, 12:32 PM   #24
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The irony is that he seems to have been fully in compliance with California's "one handgun a month" law. From his manifesto:

Quote:
I had already done some research on handguns, and I decided to purchase the Glock 34 semiautomatic pistol, an efficient and highly accurate weapon. I signed all of the papers and was told that my pickup day was in mid-December. That fell in nicely, because that was when I was planning on staying in Santa Barbara till.
The second pistol was purchased the following spring, and the third a year later.

My point? This wasn't done on impulse. He had been planning this on a rather long timescale.

Bringing back the Manchin-Toomey bill wouldn't have stopped this.
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Old May 26, 2014, 12:50 PM   #25
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We are a product of our environment. Some are raised to hunt and fish. Others are raised this is evil. Some are raised to defend themselves. Others are raised to use self-deprecating humor to redirect the bully's attention.

I grew up in a family where there were people who came over here as a result the holocaust. I walked into a store at the age of 12 while an armed robbery was occurring. I was raised to defend myself.

As a result, I choose not to be a victim. I do not dislike those who dislike guns. I don't make it my mission to convert them. I am a responsible citizen who owns firearms for legitimate reasons. I know what works for me. I don't worry about why evil happens and i do not try to reason with it. If I can be of service to someone with no experience with firearms that is interested in becoming a gun owner, I will volunteer my time and resources and I take it very seriously.

Throughout history, there have been those who put their fate and the fate of their family in the hands of politicians and there always will be. Oh....that yellow star on the front and back of my coat is no big deal. Oh.....what do I need to bother with owning a gun for there are trained professionals for this and so forth and so on.

We are a product of our environment. Be that person who others not currently in the gun culture respect as a level-headed, thoughtful individual. Don't be the lunatic open carrying an AR 15 variant at Chipotle. The liberal media will have their heyday with this travesty. When the dust settles, some non-gun owners will be asking themselves if it's time to take their own safety or the safety of their family into their own hands. Be there for them.
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