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Old May 15, 2014, 12:32 PM   #26
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Pleuger:

I'd be happy to via PM, if you'd like, but it's not really a topic for the forum.

The point is, they're not both right. If the creation (or material things of some sort) are to be worshiped, the creator is not. If the Creator is worshiped, He would be unhappy of the creation being worshiped.
If it's so off topic, why did you bring it up in the first place? Pm me if you want, but IMHO, PMs of that sort, are the cowards way out. If you have something to say and it has any value, say it in public so it so all can read. I never said modern Christians worshiped animal Gods or that it was right. You put those words in my mouth.

Quote:
Originally posted by huntinaz:

To clarify, my statement was about remorse, sympathy and empathy for the animal.
No where did I say anything about remorse or sympathy, or that it was right or wrong. I feel that is completely up to the individual hunter. I only mentioned respect and giving thanks.

I am not criticizing anyone here for their actions and feelings, so I'm having a hard time understanding why you folks are so concerned with mine. Again, the OP asked for opinions and when I gave mine, and it does not match his exactly....I must be wrong or somehow an inferior hunter.....yeah, Okay.

The folks in the "Kodiak" episode are two of the most respected and sought after Brown Bear Guides in Alaska, and they gave thanks after the kill. Someone needs to tell them they're wrong and wimpy. I am indifferent towards Ted Nugent, but many here think he walks on water. He gives thanks and says a prayer after his kill. What an idiot, eh?


As for the driving around with Bambi on the bumper. This is the reason some hunters hunt....to attempt to show how manly they are to others by showing off dead animals.
Quote:
Besides, hanging Bambi on a fender keeps deer ticks and blood off the carpet.
Maybe, but it's well known the wind and sun on Bambi is hide is makin' him sour. Better to put him in the shade inside. Also well known is that blood is hard on automotive paint. While there may be times when there's no other way to transport Bambi.......on the fender is far down on the list of preferred ones. At least to those that like to eat Bambi.
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Old May 15, 2014, 12:33 PM   #27
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As long as I make a quick, clean kill, I feel no remorse.

I know that the animal is not going to waste and that I will take bit of meat from it, and use the pelt as well.
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Old May 15, 2014, 12:36 PM   #28
Brian Pfleuger
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Let's leave the treatment of Indians out of the discussion, please. It's less than irrelevant to the topic.
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Old May 15, 2014, 12:39 PM   #29
huntinaz
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Quote:
Originally posted by Buck460XVR

If I wish to thank him for letting me enjoy a piece of his art, why should it be an issue to you?
It's not at all. There's been a ritual around hunting since forever, far as I can tell anyway. Every culture does it different. We're in kind of a unique spot in that we're free do do what we want. There's no "one ritual fits all" in current American society, especially not regarding hunting.

I think it's great, what you practice. It's just not what I do although I certainly have a strong appreciation for the species and the hunt. I love deer. There's nothing like watching a big bull elk drag his tired arse out of a herd to bugle his head off at another bull trying to hone in on his action. And when I'm successful and bringing one down, I am happy and I am not sad. Just trying to shed some light on why I don't think being happy about it is disrespectful to the animal.
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Old May 15, 2014, 12:40 PM   #30
SVTCobra306
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You should consider yourself fortunate that you get to hunt a buck with a rifle. Here, there's considerable celebration after a day's hunt whenever we get our bucks, because, depending on the season, all we get to use are shotguns, pistols, or muzzleloaders. We did have a late doe season where we could use rifles in my part of the state, but it's likely to get nixed for the coming season.

On the flip side though, we have decent sized bucks and a large herd to choose from. Anything under about a 140 isn't likely to get shot at very much, unless it's an older buck who never got very big to begin with and needs weeded out.

My attitude towards wild game is a little off the beaten path, but I'm a farmer and a cattleman, and every deer we can get we will, the amount of damage they do in a year is incredible. Same for raccoons and turkeys, and coyotes. If we didn't have a single deer, raccoon, or turkey on the farm I could trade pickups every couple of years with the extra income.
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Old May 15, 2014, 01:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Again, the OP asked for opinions and when I gave mine, and it does not match his exactly....I must be wrong or somehow an inferior hunter.....yeah, Okay.
Not at all what I was getting at Buck. Those aren't my words.
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Old May 15, 2014, 01:59 PM   #32
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Quote:
If it's so off topic, why did you bring it up in the first place? Pm me if you want, but IMHO, PMs of that sort, are the cowards way out. If you have something to say and it has any value, say it in public so it so all can read. I never said modern Christians worshiped animal Gods or that it was right. You put those words in my mouth.
I put no words in anyone's mouth. My God, people are grumpy today.

How is this so unclear?

I never said that Christians worship animals. Never used the words christian or worship at all, speaking of putting words in people's mouths.

You mentioned that the Indians worshiped the animals and that others thank the creator. I said that those two things can't both be true/valid beliefs. You asked me which one is correct. It's off topic for the thread (and entire forum) so I said you can PM me if you'd like.

References to certain practices by any given religion or belief system, as they may relate tangentially to the discussion may or may not be valid. An entire redirect of the discussion as to the correctness of one religious/belief system over another is is not valid and is specifically against forum rules.

You (and everyone else) will drop the name calling and inferences.
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Old May 15, 2014, 03:36 PM   #33
Pond, James Pond
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The OP asks if members think he is a psychopath. Don't know. Doubt it!

All I can say is how I might feel.

I still hope to get my hunting licence, but if/when I do shoot an animal I expect I will feel pretty awful about it.

I was brought up not to harm. Animals, or people. I do not like causing suffering. One very good reason for learn to drop an animal in its tracks, and for why I respect those hunters who work hard to limit pain and pay tribute to their prey once the deed is done.

In addition I have been an avid watcher and enjoyer of nature so to then kill one of the things I have relished seeing so very much would leave me feeling quite bad.

Nonetheless, it is a skill I want to learn. Whether the feelings above dissipate over time, or are such that I never hunt again, only time will tell.

There it is.
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Old May 15, 2014, 04:11 PM   #34
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Depends on the animal, some are made for us to kill and eat, others not so much.

Quote:
Any body watch the show "Kodiak" last night? What did they do when they finally put a big Bruin down? They showed respect and thanked the animal for giving it's life, while remembering the fact that only moments before the animal was alive.
Yes, I myself would not hunt the bear, he is a hunter as I am and I feel we are both related in some way. Deer amd elk? kill em and eat them. Cougars? only if it is harrassing my stuff.
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Old May 15, 2014, 04:26 PM   #35
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I dont have remorse for my clean kills. And I do hive thanks to the Lord for lettin me even see one of his critters.....amen....and tasty...
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Old May 15, 2014, 05:21 PM   #36
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I posted in others threads... it's not the sadness of killing for the food... nor the happiness of bringing home food for the family... nor the fun of the hunt. What bothers me is hunters who take such immense glee in the killing itself (rare as they may be). I've seen many of them laugh and giggle so hard after taking down an animal that they literally lose their breath. To me that's sick. If we kill to survive and feed our families then we should be far more reverent and respectful of the lives we took. I will never understand the elation some people experience in taking another life regardless of need.
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Old May 15, 2014, 05:28 PM   #37
huntinaz
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Quote:
I dont have remorse for my clean kills.
This has been mentioned a few times and I'm with y'all on that. I hate making a bad shot and have remorse when I do. I don't like to inflict pain and not be able to finish the job. That's where I feel empathy and sympathy should play a role and I certainly have it then. In other words, I can appreciate a gutshot deer is experiencing pain and I don't like causing undue suffering. That's a different situation than a successful hunt, and brings about different emotions. At least for me.
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Old May 15, 2014, 06:38 PM   #38
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I think you should be a tad pensive when you take the life away from something. But, it is the way nature works.
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Old May 15, 2014, 07:38 PM   #39
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In my unlicensed psychologist viewpoint - it is sick and demented for anyone to take any real PLEASURE in killing a living creature. Even in war, or in self-defense, it is upsetting to kill. If one takes enjoyment in ending the life of a creature, that's a sign of a mental illness. Go tell 10 people on the street of all ages and genders that you enjoy killing living creatures and see their reaction. I bet 9 out of 10 will avoid you or think you are weird.

Now, there are a variety of reasons we humans (higher intellectual beings with rational thought, emotions, sense of right and wrong, etc.) kill.

Generally from most justifiable to least:

1. Self defense, self preservation, food and clothing, other necessity. Category 1 is IMO acceptable human behavior. It's not to be enjoyed. Enjoying the hunt, bonding with friends/family, nature in general, the skill of the hunt, is IMO acceptable. Enjoying the pain and suffering, even momentarily, that you cause at terminating life is an unfit reaction IMO. I don't feel elated about the death of the cow on my plate or the leather it provided for my clothing. I appreciate that cow, but I'm not happy it died. If I were attacked by a wild animal, stray dog, or rattle snake, I might take it's life. Again, not happy to kill it. It was necessary. If I came upon a wounded suffering animal, I would end it's suffering. I would take no pleasure in it. If attacked by a person, even an evil person wanting to kill me, I would act in self defense and may legally and justifiably kill that person. I would take no pleasure in it.

I eat meat and use animal products. I enjoy the products but take zero pleasure in the deaths. In a similar vein, I live in a nation where many people died, innocently, at the hands of greedy people. Native American, slaves, women, children, etc. I take no pleasure in their deaths, but I do appreciate them and the land.

These are facts of life.

I always try to buy free range animal products and non-animal tested products because I believe in the ethical treatment of animals. While I do agree that a bullet to the heart/lungs is better than what farm raised livestock get, it's still ending a life prematurely.

People can justify in their minds all they want (I'm saving this deer from a slow starvation death at some point in the future, or being eaten by a coyote, blah blah blah). The fact is that these arguments are invalid as it relates to say, for instance, killing a person. So they are equally fallible when killing a deer, coyote, whatever. (Yes I know the difference between the legalities of hunting people versus humans, let's not get sidetracked here.)

Question: Dear hunter can take only 1 deer. He sees a few deer in a field - large buck with big rack and some medium bucks and some does and medium and small deer, and a sickly old deer with missing fur. Which deer does the hunter take? It won't be putting this sickly old one out of misery or compassion. So that invalidates the humane argument from prior posts.

2. Accident. If I hit a deer with my car, I'm not happy that I killed it. If I negligently or accidently killed any animal, I would not be happy about it, or enjoy its suffering.

3. Amusement, humor, sadistic reasons. The sadists who dog fight, produce crush videos, cock fighting, lighting gasoline-covered animals on fire, electrocuting them, etc. In my mind, there is little different between the person who goes out and blasts 20 rats in the junkyard, coyotes in the forest, prarie dogs in the field, and the guy who abuses dogs in dog-fighting, or the people who make the crush videos.

Some hunters here either refuse to accept, or purposefully ignore, the almost daily glee that is posted on this forum from the entertainment killing that goes on. These sport kills should be beneath us, and they are detrimental to gun owners rights and perpetuate the dumb, unsympathetic, ignorant, hillbilly and redneck stereotypes.

I'm not anti-hunting and I love to eat game. That's not my message here.

Of course a lot of support for hunters is going to be generated on a pro-hunting and pro-gun website... Anyone here that enjoys the actual taking of any life, I challenge you to go into town and have a brief conversation with 10 actual strangers, and poll them or tell them that when you hunt, you enjoy taking life and watching it die. Report back with their response.

As enlightened responsible humans, and gun owners, it seems as though members here would be above taking actual pleasure in terminating life. Some of the attitudes on this forum, and others, is astoundingly ignorant. Relying on "this is how humans have always been" is a copout. Humans have evolved. We are an enlightened species. For example, human males USED to take women by force. We no longer do that. Granted, this is an extreme example, but it demonstrates the point that we no longer BEHAVE certain ways because we became enlightened and figured right versus wrong.

We now know that animals think, communicate, and feel pain and fear.
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Old May 15, 2014, 08:09 PM   #40
SVTCobra306
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WOW that is reading way too deep into it. Sorry but there's no telling me that isn't an anti-hunting point of view. According to you, every one of us who has been happy to see a trophy buck fall must be a bloodthirsty sadistic killer with serious mental problems. Don't ever visit rural Iowa buddy, you'd be surrounded by bloodthirsty sadistic killers. They can be identified by Realtree or Mossy Oak camo clothing, and most of them drive pickup trucks LOL!

There's a really big difference between killing an animal and wanting to watch it suffer, believe me. And having been on both sides of the coin (see signature, I was a Cavalry Section Sergeant in the 82nd deployed from 07-08, our AO was Sadr City, I earned my Bronze Star), I shouldn't have to tell you personally it's a huge difference between squeezing a trigger on a human vs. squeezing one on an animal.
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Old May 15, 2014, 08:20 PM   #41
Mike1234
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No, it's not reading too deep. Some folks really do take immense pleasure in causing pain and killing. It's those sick individuals we (cowards) who take great offense to... not "real hunters". It's those who take "immense pleasure" in the kill... yeah... those folks are just one step away from killing people.

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Old May 15, 2014, 08:20 PM   #42
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I feel remorse when putting down family pets. I feel remorse when I wound an animal and it gets away. I do not feel remorse for a clean kill no matter how ethical/unethical other people may think that the deed was. then again I'm a religious nutbag that says a prayer of thanks every time I walk up on an animal that I've killed.
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Old May 15, 2014, 08:24 PM   #43
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^^^ Not talking about folks like you, sir.
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Old May 15, 2014, 08:38 PM   #44
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sorry, I didn't read the thread. I just wanted to throw in my .02. no offense was taken.

I also "hunt" squirrels, black birds, praire dogs, rabbits, and other varmints that I have no intention on eating... am I one of the guys that takes immense pleasure in killing for the sake of killing?
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Old May 15, 2014, 08:39 PM   #45
SVTCobra306
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There's a big leap between taking immense pleasure specifically in killing something, and feeling good about having successfully completed a hunt, especially if the result is a nice trophy or having made a particularly difficult shot. Most do feel something in the process.. if you want to feel some reverence toward your prey that is fine, but some choose not to.

I grew up party hunting with groups of shotgun hunters, which were also groups of farmers. Believe me, nobody was off crying in a corner after they killed a deer, they tagged it, dressed it, and threw it in the back of the pickup like everybody else. We're not there to share our emotions, we're there to shoot some deer and drink a beer after hunting light is over.
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Old May 15, 2014, 08:46 PM   #46
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Somehow, these threads always degenerate to a couple of guys talking about others taking immense pleasure in pain and suffering, even though nobody else in the thread ever says that they have such pleasure in the pain and suffering.

In fact, I don't recall ever having seen any such posts on TFL.

Now, this is not to say that these folks who insist on all this pain and suffering talk don't/won't say that they do find such posts, it's to say that it is, quite literally, in their own imaginations.

It's classic vilification.

One thing that these threads have in common (unfortunately along with many others on TFL) is that folks seem to go out of their way to misunderstand and/or mischaracterize the opposite argument.

There's no "can you explain that further", there's no "maybe he doesn't mean that like I read it..."

Nope. Just blow ups, denegration, innuendo, flaming and invectives.

It's embarrassing, or should be. Apparently it's not, as it just keeps happening over and over.
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