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Old March 23, 2014, 09:00 AM   #26
F. Guffey
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If you buy the Flex Hone, you can use your drill press. Only a more rigid cutter or an abrasive that can't maintain even pressure all around requires a lathe. I remember about thirty years ago walking through an engine rebuilding shop and being surprised to see a mechanic honing a cylinder sleeve with a hone turned by a hand drill. He moved the hone in and out as it turned to randomize the cutting and get a crosshatch scratch pattern to better hold oil. The hone had a U joint on it and self-centered.
I have seen that many times and I always warned them to shorten the electrical cord, I assured it had nothing to do with me being a snob, I had one individual calming he passed me 4 times and I never spoke to him once. I explained it had nothing to do with ignoring him I explained he went 4 revolutions before I realized the large cylinder hone in the large drill locked up and wrapped him around the drill with the cord.

I took the time to explain I got there as fast as I could, it was not my problem I did not get there fast enough to suit him.

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Old March 24, 2014, 12:04 PM   #27
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RCBS Gold Medal dies use bushings to size case necks. Get some bushings of different sizes for different neck wall thicknesses. Read the directions that came with those dies. You don't have to hone nor lap them at all. Midway sells steel ones for $13 each.

Regardless of the lube used to size cases, it should all be removed from both inside and outside of the cases before primers and powder goes into them.
Sorry to mislead....I only have the Gold Metal Seaters.....I thought the sizers were neck sizers only.....just realized I'm wrong. They might indeed be a super choice for most guns.

For now I'm going to muddle through this with the small-based sizer. The problem is....my Remington R25 doesn't even like Brand new Federal Blue box Factory (too fat near the base!) and forget the steel cased Russian junk. Remington factory and my small-base reloads cycle like water.

I'm still having problems with the chingaladaro in the center staying in the center. I just ordered a Lyman replacement with a carbide sleeve.....curiousity got the better of me. Be here on the 26th. If that don't work then I may have to buy multiple sizers and hone for each brand of brass.

The ONLY reason I would put up with this is my R25 is a hell of a shooter. MOA standing (4X @100 meters), leaning against a pole.....often sub MOA with sand bags on a bench using just plain ole Remington Core-lokts! IOW's it has potential if I can reload some good stuff.

I think I'm going to order a Gold Medal Sizer for this to see if the chamber will except that sizer's dimensions. If not I can still use it for other rifles.

BTW, I have experimented now with about 100 rounds. I'm of the opinion that the RCBS lube pad is a little slicker than even the STP/Hoppes mix. What can I say, my sizing with the S.B. is a little easier with the lube pad. Was not the outcome I expected.....not even in my dreams. I have a new respect for the RCBS water-based lube.
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Old March 24, 2014, 02:56 PM   #28
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Regarding your table, it looks to me like your rotation-only sample is just one case, so you don't really have anything to discern how average its behavior is for that method. Maybe that case was randomly like case #3 in the first set and was just going to lose its bend quickly anyway and the rotation did nothing. Or maybe the rotating works better than we think and that case was a tough dog the non-rotating method would have had a hard time with. That's why I suggested taking 5 cases whose neck runout averaged the same 0.005" you had for the first group before sizing, then running the rotation method with those 5 new cases. Apples-to-apples on sample size helps until the sample size gets large.

Uncle Nick: I tabled only the one round I quoted in my last post not as average data, but just an illustration of what I saw repeated in nearly 20 cases. I'm the first to admit that I'm not a scientist trained in collecting empirical data. I did my best to escape that sort of thing in college. Not enough patience or interest.

Taking 5 cases as you suggest with starting runout of .005 would be useless in this sample, because whatever rifles (auto or otherwise) that this brass was shot out of left half moon openings into the necks of most, and the ones left were not round. So starting runout is less important than first sizing runout.....and that depended entirely upon the stupid die with its loose threaded expander button.

If you are curious enough to want to do a more definitive job, even a sample size of 5 isn't going to give you a lot of confidence you've proven the rotating method is better. I'd recommend 15 of each. We could then run a t-test on each step's result to validate how truly different the averages actually are and to what level of confidence we are correct about the difference being real and not just random.
I have sized over 60 cases so far not counting another 30 plus before this thread started getting interesting, and the only randomness I've seen is in the expander button. But that's a given. Since I've finally settled on just using a lube pad/neck brush on every round, that's gotten some better. I'm betting that's due to less neck friction.....I've even given up on the mica and the STP. While the STP is pretty good, handle exertion is less still with the lube pad and brush. Whether that's true with all brass I don't know. With this batch of S.S. tumbled 2013 LC 7.62 brass it is.

As I told Bart, I ordered a Lyman stem with its carbide "donut." It may not help any but I want to see. If that's a no go, then its time to try honing. I should have the Lyman in 2 days (Amazon Prime).

One very interesting observation: On the Summit the ram is stationary, the die is lowered on it to the shell plate. When the die is all the way down over the shellplate and "cammed over", you can't let the grass grow. If you stop, hesitate a couple of seconds there, somehow the linkage finds a "flat" or something....then requires excess force to get it moving again. That's never a problem with the Rock Chucker. That feature alone makes the Summit less desirable as a sizing machine for tough brass like what I have. Maybe the linkage IS getting in it's own way, Mr. Guffy, at least on that press.

You don't see that "feature" with pistol or easier to size rifle.

Funny story Mr. Guffy.....well not for the guy wrapped up in his cord. When I was young I wrapped up my shirt in a 1/2" drill and had to cut it off. I don't remember how that could happen....long time ago....I do remember I couldn't breath and was glad I had a utility knife close by. (I also don't remember being that dumb)
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Old March 27, 2014, 11:17 AM   #29
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Yes, its a really funny story.

Interesting about the water-based RCBS lube. I've never used it. Just the old petroleum-based product, and it seemed an awful lot like STP.
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Old March 28, 2014, 10:23 PM   #30
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Failure then Success

I got my Lyman carbide expander today....I found it was a waste of money. It came with a top screw for both Lyman and RCBS dies. But I was surprised by the small diameter shaft. My first thought when I saw it was, "this thing is going to flex more than the RCBS" original. That turned out to be an understatement. A comparison picture is below:



The beefier shaft of the RCBS is obvious. I gave it a fair try with 6 cases. I could not make better runout than .005", even with multiple sizings, rotated sizings, whatever. I didn't try it un-lubed, just used the same methods as I did with the RCBS expanding button/shaft. The carbide made one positive difference....it was easier to pull it out....but that was it. (The carbide button was loose so I could spin it....maybe that was a source for runout?)

Some Good News!

I can finally get .001" to .002" nearly every time without multisizing the whole blinged LC 2013 7.62 case.

Unfortunately NOT by sizing just once and running. Fortunately, even when I use my Pro 2000 progressive, I size first on a single station press.....so the disadvantage is minimal.......and I don't HAVE to have this kind of quality for general shooting/defense ammo.

First the givens:
  • Lube the case and neck inside and out well....keeping it off the shoulder.
  • Use either RCBS lube pad and lubed brush, or STP. I have not had success lubing these 7.62 LC stainless steel wet-tumbled cases with Imperial or sprayed on lanolin. Try it if you want, but beware you may stick this blankety blinged brass...
  • Mount your sizer (mine was an RCBS small based sizer) by tightening the die nut only after your die is height adjusted and the shell holder cammed over tight against the die.
  • Size one case without the expanding button/shaft, and use it to set the expander. Screw the expander button and shaft to the depth you want and lower the die over the case you just sized without the expander shaft. Lower it just so that the button enters and centers itself in the sized case's neck.....then tighten expander shaft nuts.

Now the method I get .001"-.002" with the expander button:
  1. Lube as above and Size a case
  2. Pull the expander out
  3. Push the expander back in and before the case contacts the die's neck sizer portion, rotate the case a third.
  4. Continue into the die again but stop about 1/8" after you feel the case's neck starting to be resized.
  5. Pull the expander out. (much easier this time)
  6. Repeat pushing the expander back in, rotating another 1/3, and starting to size the neck again. (Steps 3 & 4)
  7. Pull the expander out a third time. (easier still)
That's it. Slower but it's making really straight cases without 3 to 6 resizings and the work hardening. I plan to buy a Gold Medal Sizer next to try, but this is the best I've been able to do with this expander plug die.

I think it works because going back in slightly at the shoulder realigns the shoulder with the neck and you will notice that pulling the button out gets easier each time. (and probably pulls the skew less each time)

Will you match my result? I wouldn't have a clue....but its worth a try, IMO.

Next up: the Gold Medal Seater......we will see if I can make it perform.

I added pictures to show you what this die is like. This first picture shows the bullet shaft (just this side of the ring of light) You drop the bullet in that shaft from the top and the bullet's base sticks there just above the ridge you can see....where the case's neck stops. Closer to the camera is the angled shoulder similar to that in a gun's chamber, then the rest fits the case shaft. (the dirty blob is plastitak I used to hold the sliding shaft out to photograph)



The next picture just shows the die's seating mic.



Below shows the die cutout above the lock nut where you simply drop a bullet in. Also shows the seater plug.



Bullet dropped in stops so that you can see that there is one in the die.



My first try last week on a case with .001" runout resulted in losing another .001", so the finished round has a runout of .002"

I'm going to try to beat that, but we will see. I will be seating half with the Summit, half with the Rock Chucker for comparison.
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Old April 2, 2014, 06:30 PM   #31
GWS
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Uncle Nick used his immense power to make this post, correcting a mistake I made in my last post's numbered list, moot. He fixed it! If I think of anything worthwhile to add here in the few hours I have left before I can't edit it, I will.
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Old April 3, 2014, 11:12 AM   #32
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I (flexing moderating guns) have no such editing limitations and have fixed it for you.
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Old April 3, 2014, 01:11 PM   #33
GWS
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Thank you sir! (except you missed some....maybe a cut & paste would work better?)

I'm really getting an education (or more confused) with this....I'm finding out some more things about multi- sizing. For one thing the dimensions continue to change!? Spring back changes, perhaps.

I was using a Wilson gage to keep brass within reason, but I didn't really measure anything......shoulda. Focusing on sizing this (most likely) MG brass and getting it to gage right in the Wilson, I didn't focus on how far I was bumping the shoulder. (not concerned terribly because this was a test batch) Most of it was bumped too far back according to my RCBS Precision Mic....like .007"...more than I like. (still looks good in the Wilson, so here's a new realization that the Wilson gage is a pretty course measurement.

One of the things I noticed in setting up the Summit Press, long side the Rock Chucker, (besides the fact that shims are necessary to move a die back and forth between them) is that the Summit required twice the "cam-over" than the Rock Chucker to bump the shoulder enough to settle the case rim flush with the max surface on the Wilson. ?????? haven't a clue why?

Then after miking the cases on the RCBS tool after each sizing I am noticing that the shoulder continues to bump more (at the same die setting) ..... even the minor sizing done in steps 4 through 7 on my list!

So I can size once on the R.C. and have the shoulder pushed back .002.....runout improvements in steps 4-7 pushes the shoulder back another .005???

Sizing once on the Summit (same cam-over feel!) shoulder is not bumped at all, but steps 4-7 pushes the shoulder back .003.

Talk about a can of worms. Anybody make sense of this?
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Old April 3, 2014, 03:01 PM   #34
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Cut and paste? That would have been way too easy.

Actually, I have no idea why my eye lasered in on just the one instance. You are cut and pasted now.

If you keep resizing, the case keeps getting smaller, up to a point. I've frequently recommended that folks not able to get range foundlings down to size for their chambers that they can get another couple of thousandths or more shoulder setback just by running the case back into the sizing die and counting to five and withdrawing and rotating it and doing that again. The die seems to move the grain dislocations a little every time, and letting it relax a few seconds seemed to help, too, when I first came up with the idea. But that was long enough ago that I didn't prove it statistically. I'm more patient now, and should probably run the experiment again and in a more controlled fashion.

As to the amount of overload needed to get the die down, that's likely an artifact of the die being screwed into a short cantilevered beam on the Summit rather than at the top an "O" frame, as it is in the Rock Chucker. It's not as rigid, so it flexes more. But it could also be the linkage design. I'd have to examine the two side-by-side to be sure where the flex or stretch was coming from.
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Last edited by Unclenick; April 4, 2014 at 07:15 AM. Reason: Thought it upside down and fixed it. Not a good day.
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Old April 3, 2014, 03:57 PM   #35
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As I mentioned in post 1, my intention with this thread was to compare the two presses. I can tell you for sure there is more flex in the cantilever.....in fact it tends to want to loosen with each operation......something you don't experience with a Rock Chucker. Even tight there is a torquing that occurs at the bottom of the stroke, when you bottom out and change directions to reverse....like it has to find a new alignment to start the stroke back up. You don't notice this weirdness sizing normal brass, but with this stuff it's a factor, and gives the Rock Chucker the definite nod for sizing difficult brass. Without such loading you'd never know it existed.

Let the press screws get loose and the press binds there as you try to reverse....feels almost like it derails off of a track (that isn't there). I like the press, but it won't be used to size hard brass again.....not made for that.

I talked to an RCBS engineer when the Summit first came out, trying to get a feel for why it came out. He skirted. However when I said, "Is it a Rock Chucker replacement/upgrade?" He was quick....he said, don't trade it for your Rock Chucker......that's still our top of the line press. (The price doesn't reflect that, does it?) I'm still having a ball with it...no regrets yet....I have a plan.
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Old April 4, 2014, 07:37 AM   #36
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If the weight is enough lower than the Rock Chucker, you could bolt it to a short 2×6. That and a Quick-Grip clamp will let you fix it to the bench at the range. I don't normally run a full load cycle at the range. I bring sized, primed cases, so all the press has to do is seat bullets. I use a Lee Hand Tool, but anything will do if it's alignment is true.
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Old April 4, 2014, 11:36 PM   #37
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It's still a pretty heavy press, but the footprint and the optional short handle would make it attractive for use at a range.

One guy backs his van up to the range and mounts a Summit to his trailer hitch. Did a video.....if I can find it I'll provide a link.

I noted to myself when I saw it that he needed a leg down to the ground, like you'd do to crank up a hitch off the ball on a boat trailer. That way the press stroke wouldn't flex like his did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i9phIfc0SE
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