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Old March 25, 2014, 09:41 AM   #1
garryc
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FMJ no cannelure 357 mag

What I have is some Armscor 125 grain and 158 grain FMj ,357 bullets. They have no cannelure. These are not plated, but FMJ. I want to shoot them at full power, but I'm worried about setback.

Is a good taper crimp enough?
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Old March 25, 2014, 10:56 AM   #2
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I would make sure the neck ID to bullet OD is different enough to provide a good tight fit (.002"-.003") and taper crimp the cases.
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Old March 25, 2014, 10:59 AM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
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Is this for a revolver? If so, "set forward" (bullet creep) would be the problem rather than set back.

If it's for a revolver, load up six, put them in the gun, shoot one at a time and measure the remaining rounds each time you shoot one. You will have your answer.
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Old March 25, 2014, 02:34 PM   #4
WESHOOT2
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not gonna happen

Significant experimentation with non-cannelured bullets in 'heavy' revolver loads make me suggest adding a firm roll crimp using the Redding Profile Crimp Die.

Except with no cannelure (or adhesive) the bullets will still creep forward

Seriously, heavy loads demand mechanical securing of the bullet.


You can try this:

-new brass cases only
-size using a LEE or EGW 'U' undersized sizing die
-minimum flare
-seat the bullet very slowly
-use a taper crimp die that has a shallow angle


If they need to survive more than one trip around the cylinder forget about it.......
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Old March 25, 2014, 02:51 PM   #5
buck460XVR
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Armscor claims to factory load the 158 gr bullet to 1545 fps. Hard to believe that they can hold the bullet from jumping crimp in a revolver, without a cannelure, with that hot of load. I wonder if they taper crimp over the Ogive of the bullet?
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Old March 25, 2014, 03:46 PM   #6
mkl
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Deleted. Mistake in post.

Last edited by mkl; March 25, 2014 at 03:56 PM.
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Old March 25, 2014, 04:17 PM   #7
mkl
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Sorry about the delete. Posted the wrong URL.

I have two cartridges that tend to back out jacked bullets with or without the cannelure (crimp groove).

My Bowen Arms 5-shot "hand cannon" in .45 Colt and my Marlin 95 in 45-70.

On all my other handgun cartridges I use a roll crimp or no crimp.

On these two super stiff recoil cartridges I have found that the Lee Factory Crimp Die will hold the bullet in better than anything else.

It will put a serious crimp into a FMJ bullet without a cannelure.

If your bullets still back out with the crimp you are using, you may want to try these "Factory Crimp" dies.

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-di...ory-crimp-die/

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/251...ProductFinding

Last edited by mkl; March 25, 2014 at 04:37 PM.
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Old March 25, 2014, 05:16 PM   #8
chiefr
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IMHO, I would never reload uncannelured bullets in any heavy magnum load for magnum revolvers. Yes I have tried it before and ended having to place such a heavy crimp to prevent recoil setback.

Such heavy crimp distorted and buckled the case to the point the round
would not chamber.
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Old March 25, 2014, 10:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
IMHO, I would never reload uncannelured bullets in any heavy magnum load for magnum revolvers.
^^^ Yeah, I'm gonna have to go along with this. ^^^

I like cannelures. But I still load a lot of 38/357 plated bullets sans cannelures; and I have a TCD for the job. But I don't load them hot enough for set-back (or set-forward ) to be an issue. Even if they were jacketed, I wouldn't.
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Old March 26, 2014, 08:23 AM   #10
garryc
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I ordered the factory crimp die. Probably I'm going to use Unique because the guns are 4" and 3" and there is no sense just burning powder into a fire ball. If it doesn't work I'll just shoot them in 38 spl +P loads
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Old March 26, 2014, 09:39 AM   #11
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I loaded some of those Armscor 158 grain fmj bullets when they were the only 357 caliber bullets I could find at the time. I used a Lee factory crimp die but I didn't put such a heavy crimp that it made a new cannelure in the bullet. I just put a modest crimp to go with the light charge of HS-6 (8.2 grains) and didn't have any problem. I made sure to measure the last round in the cylinder with a caliper to check for runout and didn't have any. I wouldn't load these too hot without working your way up.
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Old March 26, 2014, 01:21 PM   #12
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Up to about 1000 fps it doesn't take much crimp if you're expander isn't too big. You won't be going much faster than that with Unique.

I use Unique and other mid-burn powders with 158 grain plated bullets, and I never had a problem with bullets pulling. I use the Lyman M die to expand and flare my cases, and just a touch of a profile crimp.
Flare as little as possible.
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Old March 26, 2014, 02:02 PM   #13
full case load
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If you have enough of these bullets to warrant, you could get a cannelure making tool.
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Old March 26, 2014, 11:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
garryc: I'm going to use Unique because the guns are 4" and 3" and there is no sense just burning powder into a fire ball. If it doesn't work I'll just shoot them in 38 spl +P loads
I don't know how much loading experience you have, but that is a very common sense re-approach.

Well played.
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Old March 27, 2014, 05:23 AM   #15
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Big manufacturers may use adhesive to aid bullet pull.
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Old March 27, 2014, 02:23 PM   #16
44 AMP
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it makes a difference what the ammo is shot out of, as well.

Bullets "jumping crimp" or "pulling" in a revolver is a matter of friction vs. inertia. With proper neck tension (right size expander), and no crimp, I can shoot standard .38 Specials (158@850fps) out of an N frame S&W with no sign of bullet creep at all.

Shooting the exact same ammo out of an alloy frame snub nose is a different matter.

And the issue gets worse as either velocity or bullet weight increases.

Curious, are you sure those non-cannelured bullets are for the .357? Sometimes, things do get mis-labeled. Have you measured any of them to see if they are .357-.358"? or .355? (9mm)
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Old March 27, 2014, 08:10 PM   #17
valleyforge.1777
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I have 1,000 of the Armscor 125 grain FMJ 38/357 bullets that do not have a cannelure. Got them without realizing that they did not have a cannelure. I load 38's and 357's for lever rifles. Have not decided what to do with these things yet. Was sort of holding onto them for trading material if another shortage happens.

Anyway, yes they are 357 bullets, not 355 for 9 mm.

Was thinking of trying them with 38 brass and a +P load. They are round nose, but a little too pointy for my liking for the lever rifle's tubular magazine, although they would probably be fine at 38+P recoil levels. Might load them and shoot them from a S&W 642.

I don't know. Have not really figured out what to do with them. Was even going to offer them as free giveaway on a reloading forum, but don't want to pay postage to give them away, they're about 15 pounds for 1,000 bullets. Don't want the lucky winner to mail me postage, because I don't like to give out my name/address to strangers from the Internet.

Might take them to my shooting range and mark them "free to a good home" and leave them on a table.
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Old March 28, 2014, 10:12 AM   #18
coldbeer
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Just load em and shoot em there's nothing wrong with em. Like AMP 44 said as long as you have a decent size revolver runout shouldn't be a problem. Just don't load them too hot and you'll be ok. They make decent plinking bullets for what they cost. I didn't have any problems with the 158 gr Armscor fmj bullets I loaded. They were actually pretty accurate bullets.
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Old March 29, 2014, 08:00 PM   #19
garryc
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Quote:
I don't know how much loading experience you have, but that is a very common sense re-approach.

Well played.
Since 1982 actually.

I got the factory crimp die. I'm going to load 20 rounds and take a fine felt tip marker to trace a line around the bullet at the case mouth. I'll load 6 then fire one at a time, pulling the loaded ones after each shot to see if a gap develops between that line and the case mouth.

If I get through 20 then I'm good. If one or two start to pull I'll break them down to figure out why, which probably would be the case is slightly shorter.
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Old April 1, 2014, 05:28 PM   #20
44flattop
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If you're going to make a habit of this, get at cannelure tool. They're easy to use and not very expensive.
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Old April 1, 2014, 10:36 PM   #21
44 AMP
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Quote:
If you're going to make a habit of this, get at cannelure tool.
Better yet, get a CONTENDER! With a .357 Mag barrel. Then you don't need any crimp at all! (unless you need one for a slow powder, like 296).

Contenders have great triggers, they are accurate as all get out, a 10" barrel on one isn't too long, and can be easily scoped, if you want.

plus its a good excuse to get one.
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