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Old March 7, 2014, 07:50 AM   #76
RussB
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Early USP's had firing pins prone to breakage. The entire line was re-engineered. That's another well documented issue with HK.
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Old March 7, 2014, 09:02 AM   #77
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kings???? no..... excellent guns yes.
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Old March 7, 2014, 09:14 AM   #78
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Early USP's had firing pins prone to breakage. The entire line was re-engineered. That's another well documented issue with HK.
This is true. A new firing pin and firing pin block were released (you can retrofit an older one with the new parts if desired). You still have to dryfire the hell out of one in order for a break to happen. If you use snap caps you're good to go anyway. Not trying to make excuses, just stating the true extent of that issue.
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Old March 7, 2014, 10:10 AM   #79
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I would say they are, especially the HK. I don't make this claim out of ignorance since over the years, I've had a great love for the .45 ACP and owned a lot of them. From the cheaper Taurus 24/7 OSS, Ruger P90 and EAA Witness to mid-priced guns like the Glock 21, M&P45, Kimber and Springfield 1911s and Springfield XDs, my stop performer has been the USP-45. The Sig P220 was also up there in performance and quality but for me, their controls are backwards. But still, you are looking at fit, finish, accuracy, reliability and just plain overall quality compared to the other makers and designs out there leaves me to believe that these may be more expensive than others, but they are worth the extra money.
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Old March 7, 2014, 11:36 AM   #80
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Modern-day kings hold hereditary positions; they live lives of wealth, privilege, and luxury not because of their own merits, but because their ancestors accomplished something in the military and/or political arenas. By this standard, I am not sure we complement a company by referring to them as kings.

My one Sig is a quality execution of an excellent design. I don't own an HK, but I can acknowledge that their reputation is similar. The problem I have with declaring their kingship (aside from my opening wisecrack) is that I have other pistols that also are well designed and well executed, and I expect them to perform and last very well. Sig and HK are excellent companies dedicated to making a quality product, but without denigrating them in any way I personally don't see them as being in a class entirely by themselves among the several firearm companies that are, as a group, producing some pretty high quality products.
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Old March 8, 2014, 11:27 AM   #81
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Sig and HK don't even belong in the same sentence anymore as far as quality goes. Not in the last 15 years.

Most HK's are German made which go to a proof house for QC and testing.
Exeter's current QC team consists of former burger king employees.

And I'm not a Sig hater, I bought my first in 1986, currently own two others both 15+ years old.

I've seen the regression first hand. YMMV but mine doesn't.
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Old March 8, 2014, 12:32 PM   #82
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I only own two semi auto pistols and they're nothing special but I've never thought of Sig or HK as being a step above everything else tbo. They just seem overpriced if anything. Are Sig and HK guns really that much better than Glock, Colt, CZ, S&W, Kimber, Ruger, ect?
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Old March 8, 2014, 03:51 PM   #83
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Are Sig and HK guns really that much better than Glock, Colt, CZ, S&W, Kimber, Ruger, ect?
um yeah!
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Old March 8, 2014, 04:03 PM   #84
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They just seem overpriced if anything. Are Sig and HK guns really that much better than Glock, Colt, CZ, S&W, Kimber, Ruger, ect?
No... They are still mostly plastic and metal, and the same bullets come out. Maybe older Sigs, and custom ones like my old Wilson COB, simple, all metal, and reliable. The new HK, Kimber, Glock, I doubt it... But buy what you like, it is your money. I have bought many too expensive guns, and you lose a ton of cash if you trade a lot like I do! They are pretty, but metal is metal, and plastic is plastic regardless of trade name stamped on the plastic.

Bottom LINE:

Do your research, go to ranges that rent all models and see for yourself. Most folks will praise what they bought, and bad mouth other makes, as they can NEVER BE WRONG ... RIGHT? DO YOU OWN AND HAVE FUN!
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Old March 8, 2014, 04:27 PM   #85
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No... They are still mostly plastic and metal, and the same bullets come out.
True. But my HK hasn't had to make two trips back to the manufacturer .
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Old March 8, 2014, 04:42 PM   #86
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True. But my HK hasn't had to make two trips back to the manufacturer .
So far my friend, so far!

I hope you never do my friend... I may try an new HK if I need to adjust my survival carry gun bag of tricks...
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Old March 8, 2014, 04:46 PM   #87
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So far my friend, so far!
Now that I said that everything will break. I need to get a horseshoe and a fourleaf clover.

Even I have a hard time paying the new prices for SIG and HK and I am an unabashed fanboy. To me a used SIG or HK is great. Still has loads of miles on it and people tend to treat them well because of the cost. Used SIGs tend to be easier to find than used HKs though, at least near me.
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Old March 8, 2014, 04:46 PM   #88
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Are sig and HK at the top of the line of production semi autos as far as dependability, durability workmanship and possibly style?
Yes. HK is the top of the heap for production pistols.

Since Ron Cohen (formerly of Kimber notoriety) took over Sig their quality has suffered.
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Old March 8, 2014, 04:56 PM   #89
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Since Ron Cohen (formerly of Kimber notoriety) took over Sig their quality has suffered.
I used to 100% agree with this. Just last weekend I picked up a used 2010 SIG P239. The fit and finish are excellent (the barrel to slide fit is some of the tightest I have seen in a production pistol, even compared to my SIG P228). The trigger is good and at the weight advertised.

The way I would describe the SIGs post-Cohen is not that the quality across all pistols has suffered. But the chances of getting a lemon or one with fit and finish issues has gone up. I know folks that used to work at the factory and some that still do. Their level of production compared to what it used to be is insane. They are pumping pistols and rifles out like crazy. That is Cohen's strategy, profit through volume. Frankly it just means a few slip through the cracks. It's sad, but it wouldn't stop me entirely from buying a new SIG again.
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Old March 9, 2014, 03:05 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Dragline45 View Post
I would say they are at the top of the food chain, I am a huge fan of Sig's although HK's never tickled my fancy, but they are great guns too. Of course alot depends on if you like DA/SA autos which make up most of Sig's and HK's line of pistols, fortunately for me DA/SA is my preference. If S&W had more business sense they would have kept their line of DA/SA autos as they were some of the best out there and compete with both Sig's and HK's IMO, but of course S&W has been known for making a heap of bad business decisions over the years, so nothing they do surprises me.

I love the 59 series

Big Sig fan also
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Old March 9, 2014, 03:12 PM   #91
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Overpriced for what you get.
I agree-and I own and like both brands. It's up to the individual buyer to decide whether their regal prices are worth the extra money or not. For much less money, there are many fine pistols made every bit as well, in my estimation, for the choosing.
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