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Old February 24, 2014, 02:11 PM   #1
Stormson
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My idea for long term loading

So I really like the idea of keeping my little '58 loaded at all times... It spurs me to shoot more when I start getting paranoid about the powder going bad in it LOL

Thing is, it isnt always so easy to find places to shoot around here, and allot of times I am REALLY busy for long periods of time..so while I try to get in some practice in as much as I can, I can foresee this puppy sitting around for long periods of time as well.

I also really like to use the lubed wads (gonna make up some pills soon and see how that works as well)... But of course, the idea of leaving lube on top of powder for long periods of time doesnt seem all that smart either.

So my idea was, I got myself a bol-wax ring to make up some pills with... What if I punch out some cereal box wads and soak them JUST in the wax, then put that pure wax card between the powder and the lubed wad or pill? I should still be able to get the 30-35grs that my remmi seems to like, and it would SEEM to me that the wax card would protect the powder?

Am I onto something here, or am I way out in left field already?
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Old February 24, 2014, 02:16 PM   #2
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Oh.. if it matters.. I am using 777 in her.

Also, I may not get back to answer this for a bit... Seems the ol' lady and the doc are conspiring against me... As a result, shes on her way to take me for a bunch of tests and xrays... Blah! I'll get back as soon as I can though..

Hmm.. I wonder if they still use LEAD in the x-room? Maybe cast me some glow in the dark round balls out of it??? Black powder tracer ammo!
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Old February 24, 2014, 02:54 PM   #3
g.willikers
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The main problem with BP and substitutes is that they readily soak up water.
If you live in a low humidity place, it's less concern than say Louisiana, or Florida.
The closer you live to alligators and sharks the worse it gets.
As long as the cylinder chambers are sealed well to the environment, the powder should be ok, but only if both ends of those chambers are sealed.
A good sealing ball or bullet would probably be enough.
But what are you going to do with the nipple end?
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Old February 24, 2014, 03:51 PM   #4
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I use the bore butter made by t/c for my patches and the bore. Ive left a shot in my ml for 2 years, took it out put a cap in and bang no problem. That was using black mag powder. The bore butter is not suppose to effect the powder. 2 years sitting around is enough to make me a believer.
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Old February 24, 2014, 04:04 PM   #5
rodwhaincamo
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I leave mine loaded. Gets loaded after it's cleaned and dried.

I also use T7 but I either use a dry wad or none.

I have heard of people punching disks out of wax paper.

My caps (Rem #10's) are a tight fit. I live in central Texas and it's typically very humid. I've yet to have any problems with ignition.
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Old February 24, 2014, 04:12 PM   #6
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I suspect that any kind of powder loaded with a dry wad will last pretty much indefinitely with an interference-fit ball and a snug-fitting cap.

Steve
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Old February 24, 2014, 06:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
The main problem with BP and substitutes is that they readily soak up water.
If you live in a low humidity place, it's less concern than say Louisiana, or Florida.
The closer you live to alligators and sharks the worse it gets.
As long as the cylinder chambers are sealed well to the environment, the powder should be ok, but only if both ends of those chambers are sealed.
A good sealing ball or bullet would probably be enough.
But what are you going to do with the nipple end?
Well, I live in the mountains of southwest Virginia... Not exactly a desert around here, but we dont have any rock climbing gator's either ... Im not as worried about humidity being a problem so much as grease from the wad contaminating the powder...

Ahh.. the nipple end! This, naturally, leads me to yet ANOTHER question (hehe, you guys tired of me yet? LOL)...I had considered dripping some wax on them if i KNOW its going to be awhile. Lucky enough, my #11 Remington caps do seem fit pretty well though...BUT, I did see these cool little seals being advertised lately... Sort of like tiny rubber o-rings, that fit around the caps... They LOOK like a good idea, to this untrained eye, but what do you guys think?
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Old February 24, 2014, 06:55 PM   #8
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I use the bore butter made by t/c for my patches and the bore. Ive left a shot in my ml for 2 years, took it out put a cap in and bang no problem. That was using black mag powder. The bore butter is not suppose to effect the powder. 2 years sitting around is enough to make me a believer.
Hmm.. I didnt know that about bore butter. I have been using wonder wads AND packing a dab of lard on top of them so far... Seems to work really really great for keeping the fouling soft.. Any idea if the lube in Wonder Wads is Bore Butter by chance? If not, I might have to find some felt and make some wads from it... I have the green stuff in the tube if that makes any difference?
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Old February 24, 2014, 07:06 PM   #9
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I leave mine loaded. Gets loaded after it's cleaned and dried.

I also use T7 but I either use a dry wad or none.

I have heard of people punching disks out of wax paper.

My caps (Rem #10's) are a tight fit. I live in central Texas and it's typically very humid. I've yet to have any problems with ignition.
Quote:
I suspect that any kind of powder loaded with a dry wad will last pretty much indefinitely with an interference-fit ball and a snug-fitting cap.
I have been really lubing things up because I cant take the entire revolver completely down yet (problem with the innards), and so I have been reluctant to try cleaning with the time honored "hot water" method.

So far what I have been doing is use a lubed wonder wad, then a dab of lard on top of that, then a .454 RB. At leaning I have simply been using #9 Nitro Solvent, brass brush, and wet\dry patches for bore and chambers... then wet\dry Q-tips for the nipple threads and the bottom of the chambers... Same for the innards that I can reach with a q-tip, though they also get a blast of rem-oil at the end, while the bore gets bore butter... It has actually worked like a DREAM, not a speck of rust anywhere that I can see.... I would kinda like to just keep this routine,since it seems to work, but Im pretty sure all the lube helps allot with the ease of cleaning... I could TRY the dry lube thing, but was actually planning to try "lube pills" of 50\50 wax and lard to keep the fouling and binding down...
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Old February 24, 2014, 07:20 PM   #10
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I use the yellow tube, which is the same as green just different scent. I think the thompson patces are soaked in their bore butter, not sure of others. My loading procedure is first i clean well and dry completely. Then i run a few cleaning patches soaked in bore butter, then 1 dry patch to get any heavy stuff out. Then i pour down powder, then ball and a soaked patch in the bore butter. To clean and lube barrel while it has a shot in it when it sits for a long time i just run a few cleaning patches down lightly soaked in bore butter. Has worked well for me. I shoot goex powder now, and the bore butter also reduces the fouling quit a bit. Between shots ill run a lightly soaked patch in the bore butter just to make reloading easier.
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Old February 25, 2014, 08:37 AM   #11
DD4lifeusmc
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long term

Couple things here.
Do you live in a high humidity climate that gets very hot and quite cold?
I'm thinking condensation here.
I'm in Wyoming and I leave mine loaded for long periods, in and out of the house almost daily winter and summer, and no problems.

Next not all bowl rings are pure beeswax any more, so you need to verify that.

Next is corrosion. Even unfired BP and some substitutes have P.N. (a salt)
in them. While it probably won't hurt anything, still best to be aware

No, I would not leave a lubed wad of any kind on the powder. Put a dry one on top of the powder.

I roll paper cartridges and use a lubed conical. And while it is tedious to do so, I place a small dab of my lube mix on each nipple. Being very caredul to not block the hole. I then press the cap on. The lube is somewhat sticky so it helps hold the cap on. Plus it seals any moisture out.
I only do the lube on nipple when It is going to be loaded for long periods.

The paper helps insulate the powder from the metal of the chamber thus reducing the possibility of condensation contamination.

other than the ocassional dud cap that happens, it has never failed to go boom in 30 some years.
I do sell beeswax 1# $11.00 and 4oz tubs $3.50 and bore butter
and bluing, black powder solvent, cappers, jags, worms and other things.

In cleaning. I use plain rubbing alcohol. I fill a small plastic butter tub about 1/2 way, dip q-tips etc in and clean the crevices. Cleaning patches on a rod for th barrel.
Then dry thoroughly. Soak the cylinder in it with the nipples in the cylinder.

I only remove the nipple every ciouple years or so, Same with the innards,

I still have about a 1/2 tube of CVA patch grease (no longer made). I clean the innards and then pack the trigger group housing with the patch grease.
Put the guard on. this stuff has never gotten drippy on me. But does not seem to affect my trigger pull.
I place hammer in full cock. squirt some down in the bottom. Then using a q tip I smear a very fine coat up in the hammer slot (should just look like a light oil sheen when done). I coat same way both sides and face of hammer.
Doing this the fouling residue doesn't get into those areas in the first place and a q tip with alcohol on it, will clean the hammer area of the residue and the grease. Then just reapply in those areas. No need to do the trigger housing after each firing.
I would guess bore butter would work too, but it is thinner than the patch grease. You could also blend the beeswax and lard / tallow/oil to do the same I imagine.

Last edited by DD4lifeusmc; February 25, 2014 at 09:01 AM.
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Old February 25, 2014, 08:59 PM   #12
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DD4lifeusmc-

Wow, thanks for such a detailed reply. Sounds like you arnt much on the water bath cleaning method either? Ive been doing something similar, but with Hopps #9 and RemOil.. No problems so far.

Like i was telling g.willikers, where I live isnt considered a dry area, lots of tiny (really tiny) branches, springs, creeks and whats called "rivers" here (they are the size of creeks everywhere else really), but very little big water... I dont really see humidity being a problem. Yeah we DO get some really wild temperature swings at times.. Have seen it drop from over 100F to the 30's with quarter sized hail, in less then hour before.. But that kind of stuff is REALLY rare... Nothing like Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Etc.... Saw some really wild stuff up in the Bitter Boot (Silver Valley), but its pretty tame around here.

I heard that about bol-wax... Problem is, I cant see anywhere on the box WHAT it is or isnt? It just says Harvey's Bol-Wax No.1. Under the instructions it says that its ready to use at 70F, and it is brown in color... Just the plain wax, no rubber flange. I am hoping that.. well.. at worst its its still wax right? LOL.. I guess I'm just gonna have to try a small batch and see if ends up with a clean bore or a tar sludge...

Yup.. the lubed wad DOES seem to be a problem.. THATS what Im trying to cheat on! Hoping maybe some pure wax cards would keep the lube and powder separated... Leaving me with the best of both worlds, good lube to prevent fouling, AND long term storage... Eh.. Thats what Im HOPING for anyway LOL

rodwhaincamo says he has heard of people using disks of wax paper... Guess I was thinking along the same lines, just with a stiffer card.

Paper cartridges look like a great idea... Plan to get into them at some point as well, but still getting my bearings with the fundamentals... Plus, its pretty much impossible for me to find any conicals around here... Or online it seems. Greased conicals over a dry wad (or pure wax soaked cardboard?) would seem to be the answer to my storage issues as well... But so far that has been like finding a stash of hens teeth LOL... With everything else you sell, you dont happen to sell any of those conicals do ya? Feel free to PM me a list of your stuff and ya prices... I usually buy stuff local if I can, but there is ALLOT I cant around here either.

Speaking of conicals... The guy I bought this from said he had a single slot mould (I think he said it was a Layman) that he had had for years and that they no longer made. Said it was a 180gr hollowpoint and that while slow, it made the PERFECT conicals for this little 5.5' remmi... Anyone ever hear of this mould? Why in the WORLD would they stop making what seems to be such a great idea? I would LOVE to score some hollowpoint conicals!

Never thought about lube on the nipples before... Could that be contributing to those few dud caps though?

Never thought of rubbing alcohol either.. Does it work as good as #9 nitro solvent? I may have to try that just to save some of those precious few pennies. But the nipples only once every couple years? Dont they get stuck, or hard to get off? I have been removing and soaking mine in the #9 every time, then drying well and putting just a touch of lard on the threads, in fear of having them seize up and break my super duper el' cheapo nipple wrench...

Hmm.. That CVA patch lube sounds like great stuff... Does it list the ingredients? Maybe we could experiment and try and duplicate it? Seems to be plenty of DIY's around here.. perhaps if we collaborated on it we could figure out the recipe?

Thanks to all you guys for all your time.. I am learning all kinds of stuff right here in this thread alone!
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Old February 25, 2014, 10:00 PM   #13
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He does cast and sell a 195 grn SWC that works well by myself and the others who have tried it.

Another thought could be thin cardboard instead of wax paper.
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Old February 25, 2014, 10:06 PM   #14
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I use alcohol to rid my chambers and nipples of oils.

I'm assuming you're thinking of leaving it loaded as something to keep around the house. I considered the few times I know of the old Civil War vets talked about (Elmer Keith's buddies) balls vs conicals, and the balls putting a man down vs a conical just zipping through without enough effect, and I figured it was due to a higher velocity and lead expansion in a ball vs a pointy slow RN just pushing the meat out of the way.

Their powders were more likely something along the lines of Swiss or Olde E, but their conicals were generally heavy (and slower), but a RN will never be as effective as a SWC or FN bullet. Plus, if it's fast enough, you'll likely get expansion too.
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Old February 25, 2014, 10:06 PM   #15
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Sweet! I might check em out soon... Still trying to get my basics down and all, but yeah, I been itching to try out some conicals!

Yeah thats what I was thinking... Like cereal box cardboard, soaked just in the wax itself... Nothing too thick, just kind of a seal between the lubed wad and the powder.

I have heard the same thing about round balls being better stoppers, but I agree, the more modern SWC design is at least worth looking into. Sure wish I could find one of those laymen 180gr hollowpoint molds.. THAT would be worth getting into casting my own real quick like! LOL
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Old February 25, 2014, 10:07 PM   #16
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I have a mold coming that drops a lighter and wider nosed bullet as I keep mine loaded. It will weigh ~170 grns. I'm hoping for expansion!
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Old February 25, 2014, 10:16 PM   #17
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Hmm.. Is it a custom mold? Hope you let us know how they work... Maybe some expansion tests with wet newspaper would be in order? I suspect youre right about the lighter and fatter being better. Always liked the .45ACP in hot loads or with lighter bullets, for exactly that same reason...
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Old February 25, 2014, 10:24 PM   #18
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I'll certainly come back with whatever results I get, though I'm not sure how much my local range will allow me to do. I would like to do some penetration and expansion tests, as well as velocity. I like numbers.
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Old February 25, 2014, 11:58 PM   #19
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moulds

My 45-195R is a custom mould it is the swc style rodwha mentioned.
The mould without handles costs $190 from the manufacturer.
I have ordered a new one that I had modified.
This one comes to more of a point but still has a flat face.
I modified the diameters to make slightly easier loading
And It is a tad shorter, to fit the new smaller loading areas.
I expect it here around the end of march or early April.
It will be between 185 and 190 gr.

Remember cast projectiles look different than swaged.
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Old February 26, 2014, 06:36 AM   #20
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Stormson

I don't think anyone has officially welcomed you to the forum. So, "Welcome"

You are asking a lot of good questions. It appears you are willing to do your homework.

I think the idea of carrying that short Remington with is a good one as well.

Problem with lube over the ball is that almost any lube will get a little runny in the climates that you (south western VA) and I (south eastern VA) live in. It gets hot enough for about four to six months out of the year to make that a problem, at least in my observation.

You can make yourself a thicker concoction using beeswax as a bonding agent with either lard or (for the purist) mutton tallow.

For years I used wax rings and Crisco successfully but it was still a problem on hot days. (So, I guess you know that your idea to use it has placed you squarely in the center of my winner's circle) DD4life is right. No one makes wax rings of beeswax. But if you clean fastidiously it isn't a problem.

Someone earlier said Thompson's Bore Butter and I mean no disrespect to any one but as exclusively a revolver shooter, I hate the stuff. It smells like the shooter brought his favorite hooker along with him. I can't get it to stay put, no matter how much profanity I use. It gets all over the revolver, the hands, the shooting bench and the steering wheel of the pickup. It costs about four or five times as much as a home recipe (such as described above)

I do not hunt, but was told by a hunter that he was using Bore Butter one day and didn't see a deer. When he got out his binoculars, he saw all of the deer pinching their noses trying to get a far away as they could. (That's a lie, of course)
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Old February 26, 2014, 08:10 AM   #21
44 Dave
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When I intend to keep a revolver loaded I add a card wad over the powder, then my lubed wad.
Any gook over the ball will be a magnet for dust and dirt, when carried for a while, which will scrub it's way down the barrel when fired.
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Old February 26, 2014, 09:01 AM   #22
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Stormson

You can make your own cards with a punch kit from Harbor Freight at about ten bucks. Works best in a drill press.

I use iridescent poster board because I like to easily find the cards after the shot to see how far they are going/are they separating from the bullet (when I shoot BP cartridges).

It appears you are not opposed to doing things on your own and this is one place you can have a lot of fun and save a lot of money.

This technique works for wads as well. I go to a thrift store and buy a 100% wool men's hat. One hat will give you about a billion wads. Others in the group like to use Durafelt which is thicker than hat felt but a little more expensive.
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Old February 26, 2014, 11:23 AM   #23
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Quote:
I don't think anyone has officially welcomed you to the forum. So, "Welcome"
Why thank ya Doc!

Quote:
For years I used wax rings and Crisco successfully but it was still a problem on hot days. (So, I guess you know that your idea to use it has placed you squarely in the center of my winner's circle) DD4life is right. No one makes wax rings of beeswax. But if you clean fastidiously it isn't a problem.
Thats what I am gathering... I'll probably try it anyway, just cos I already got the thing... But not expecting much. I suspect I'll have to get real beeswax soon.. Just liked the idea of picking up the bol-wax for cheap where I shop all the time anyway.

Quote:
Someone earlier said Thompson's Bore Butter and I mean no disrespect to any one but as exclusively a revolver shooter, I hate the stuff. It smells like the shooter brought his favorite hooker along with him. I can't get it to stay put, no matter how much profanity I use.-

When he got out his binoculars, he saw all of the deer pinching their noses trying to get a far away as they could. (That's a lie, of course)
ROTFLMO!!!!

Quote:
You can make your own cards with a punch kit from Harbor Freight at about ten bucks. Works best in a drill press.
Yup, was looking at these cheap hammer punches though, as I dont have a drill press..

http://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece...-set-3838.html

Quote:
It appears you are not opposed to doing things on your own and this is one place you can have a lot of fun and save a lot of money.
Nope.. Ive always believed in doing more, with less, for myself. My problem these days isnt the will, its just the TIME. I do have to admit, I buy far more things these days then I wish I did... Still, when I do get around to things, it just plain FEELS better to look at a finished product and know that I did it myself for little or nothing (Im cheapskateas well as DIYer! LOL)

Last edited by Stormson; February 26, 2014 at 11:28 AM.
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Old February 26, 2014, 11:23 AM   #24
rodwhaincamo
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If what's loaded is all that you'd likely be firing I don't see the need for any lube really. It's just meant to keep the fouling softer, which is nice for a range session I suppose.
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Old February 26, 2014, 11:28 AM   #25
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I've been using Gatofeo's infamous #1 lube now for most everything including felt wads, pistol bullets, and rifle conicals. Seems good enough for me.

I've been considering trying some on my rifle patches instead of using grape seed oil, but I think I'll try the ole Ballistol and water mix first.

Gatofeo's lube was found by said fellow, and it's a very old recipe.

2 parts paraffin, 2 parts mutton tallow, and 1 part beeswax.

I have so much of the stuff I poured some of the extra into SWMBO's soap mold and made little bricks that I then cut into 6 pieces and use like a crayon the lube grooves with. It's slow but I enjoy it. It can be used pan lube style.
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