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Old January 31, 2014, 08:27 PM   #1
STEINER
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Appleseed Central is history

The last post on this sticky was 2011?
I signed up for the two day event recently.
Interested in the Army Qualification Test.
Got the 22 dialed in with Tech-Sights.
The old ammo requirement was 400 rounds. Now, 200.
This 22 ammo shortage is having an impact on a lot of people.

You can use center-fire calibers but was thinking of conserving some money
and taking a 22lr.
Does anyone know if the time, competition shooting for the "Rifleman" patch is for only iron sights?
I see shooters on youtube using scopes/red dots, etc at the Appleseed event.
All the targets are at 25 yards with target sizes to similate longer distances.
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Old January 31, 2014, 10:02 PM   #2
rdmallory
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You can use just about anything. I had better luck with open sites than a scope. For the first day it will be all 25 yard shooting unless they changed it. The second day might be known distance out to 300+ yards so I would take a center fire also. First day will be a lot of interesting history, basics of shooting with a sling, a good cheek weld, and natural point of aim. Most of which a scope will not help you much.

You need a mag fed semi auto. You can do it with a tube fed bolt but it will not be easy or fun. After two days you will be tired and sore (or alt least I was) You do a lot of position changes. 10 standing, 10 sitting , 15 laying etc. (total shots might not be correct) but you get the general idea.

My second day I was popping 12" balloons at 300 yards with a M1 and open sites. I could of went out to 400 but I could not see the balloons.

Doug
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Old January 31, 2014, 11:07 PM   #3
STEINER
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rdmallory...

Thanks.
I have a Marlin 795 w/sling and lots of mags.
I think I will throw my .223 Ranch Rifle in the trunk just in case I decide to
shoot center fire.
One more trip to the range and everything should be ready.
Got a yoga mat, knee pads, elbow pads, water...etc.
Should be fun.
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Old February 1, 2014, 08:23 PM   #4
WardenWolf
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I'd be interesting in doing an Appleseed, but the 25 yard limit of all the local ones is a real turn-off for me. I mean, frankly, that range is a joke, particularly when I know what my rifles can do. It just doesn't make sense to me to spend all that time and effort just to plink at easy targets.

I'd like to do a long-range one so I can break out the Mauser or SVT-40.
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Old February 1, 2014, 09:59 PM   #5
STEINER
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The range hosting the RWVA Appleseed here where I am at has 2,3 and 4hundred yard shooting areas besides the public 25 to 100 yard range.
From what I understand so far is that on the second day we can shoot
out on the longer distances. That is why it is suggested to bring something
more powerful than the 22 LR for Sundays competition.
Sorry to hear your local range can't provide longer shooting.

I would still try to get a 220 on the AQT even if it is only simulated at
25 yards. Those targets are really small, especially with only irons.
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Old February 1, 2014, 10:15 PM   #6
rdmallory
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Appleseed is not just about shooting. It has been described as a history lesson in shooting. From the Appleseed site "Our heritage program vividly portrays the Battles of Lexington and Concord with the kind of care and immediacy that is absent from most formal schooling. Modern listeners are confronted with the danger, the fear, and the heartbreaking separations that arose out of the choices made on April 19th, 1775. They are also reminded of the marksmanship skills and masterful organization that ultimately helped set the colonists on the path to success. Those who attend gain a better understanding of the fundamental choices faced by our ancestors as they began to set the stage for the nation we now enjoy."

I have seen a lot of "good shooters" get out shot by a 15 year old that knows how to hold a rifle and use a sling. 55 seconds in not a long time to shoot change positions get natural point of aim figured out and hit a 1" target EVERY TIME. No rest, no tripod, just your sling and body.

"Detailed instruction by instructors on each of these steps is taught to all attendees as a group with additional one-on-one instruction as necessary.

Natural point of aim is a firing technique that does not rely on the shooter's muscles to aim the rifle. Using a sling, a relaxed body, and the NPOA technique, a rifleman can consistently shoot 4 MOA groups at 500 yards.

Demonstrating the ability to achieve a 4 MOA accuracy and precision requires achieving a score of 210 or higher on an adapted ("Quick and Dirty") Army Qualification Test (AQT), out of a possible 250 points. The AQT uses timed stages to test shooting skill from standing, sitting, and prone positions. The test simulates ranges of 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. The 400-yard simulated target is approximately 6.25 square centimeters (about one square inch), and is shot at a range of 25 meters. This translates into a 4 MOA wide target which is the rifleman standard in the Appleseed program.

You can do that at 25 yards. moving over to 200-400 yards is no problem.
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Old February 3, 2014, 12:54 AM   #7
WardenWolf
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Shouldn't be too hard to achieve with a scoped AK or 10/22 then. I know how to handle my guns and get an instant sight picture.
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Old February 16, 2014, 10:13 PM   #8
STEINER
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Well...
I spent two full days at Appleseed and nobody made "Rifleman".
It is not easy. What was I thinking?
When you shoot at a 1" square at 25 yards with no bench or bipod...
it takes some serious marksmanship and technique.
My score was good enough for Marksman and I just need to process and apply all the great information they taught us to get that holy grail...
"Rifleman."
I am going to go again next month and practice a lot between now and then.
Great history speeches during lunch on the American Revolution.
Really sore right now. Lots of re-positioning from standing, sitting and prone.
I never knew how useful the sling can be if used properly.
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Old February 16, 2014, 10:32 PM   #9
rdmallory
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Whole lot harder than it sounds...

I did not get mine first try either. Those who thinks it's easy print out the free test target and try it at 50ft.

3 Standing
3 Sitting
3 Prone

Doug

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=9833.0
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Old February 18, 2014, 04:46 PM   #10
fdf
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"Got the 22 dialed in with Tech-Sights"

I keep hearing about "dialing in sights".

Where is the dial??

My father taught me to shoot and the military taught me to shoot and we learned how to sight in a firearm. Is dialing like dishing?
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Old February 18, 2014, 05:57 PM   #11
rdmallory
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Tech-Sights are military type peep sights.

They teach you proper cheek weld and front post sight placement so you get the same results every time you pick up the rifle.

Most use the pumpkin on the post sight picture due to the size of the target and the front post.

Dialed in comes from the old M1 days where the rear sight actually had a dial.
If you go to a know distance shoot they teach you about battle field zero with a M1 and a AR.

Doug
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Old February 18, 2014, 08:09 PM   #12
STEINER
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Google images of Tech-Sights. You will see two rotary dials on them.
One you rotate for vertical changes and the other for horizontal adjustments.
They, to me anyway are just that... dials.
They click in increments and stay put.
I highly recommend the TSM200, front and rear sight package for the
Marlin 795. You get both for $70.00. Good investment.
Tech-Sight make these "dial-in" peep sights for lots of different
rifles.
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Old February 18, 2014, 08:48 PM   #13
Beentown71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WardenWolf View Post
Shouldn't be too hard to achieve with a scoped AK or 10/22 then. I know how to handle my guns and get an instant sight picture.
I've seen many think they were rifleman and hardly scored marksman.

I cannot wait to take my girls (8,6, and 10 months).
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Old February 19, 2014, 10:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
I'd be interesting in doing an Appleseed, but the 25 yard limit of all the local ones is a real turn-off for me. I mean, frankly, that range is a joke, particularly when I know what my rifles can do. It just doesn't make sense to me to spend all that time and effort just to plink at easy targets.
The “V-ring” on the 25 yard, 400 yard simulated target at an Appleseed measures 9/16 of an inch. (If memory serves me) If you can put ten consecutive shots into the V-ring in all three shooting positions with no support other then a sling, well, you probably don’t need to attend an Appleseed event.

I’m not the world’s best rifle shot, but I’m far from the worse. I didn’t make Rifleman until half way through day two of the event. There were 19 shooters on the line the weekend I attended, and I was the only one that made Rifleman. It’s not as easy as one might think for the average shooter.
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Old February 20, 2014, 10:42 AM   #15
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Quote:
I keep hearing about "dialing in sights".

Where is the dial??
Radios have knobs to adjust your dial to get it you on station where you move it. Moving these knobs is called "dialing".

Scopes/sights have little knobs to dial your sights up and down, right and left to get your impact where you want it...its called "dialing".
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Old February 20, 2014, 07:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
I'd be interesting in doing an Appleseed, but the 25 yard limit of all the local ones is a real turn-off for me. I mean, frankly, that range is a joke, particularly when I know what my rifles can do. It just doesn't make sense to me to spend all that time and effort just to plink at easy targets.


Like others have stated, it is much harder than one would imagine.
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Old February 21, 2014, 10:54 AM   #17
Jimro
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Quote:
Shouldn't be too hard to achieve with a scoped AK or 10/22 then. I know how to handle my guns and get an instant sight picture.
I wouldn't recommend the AK. The scoped 10/22 is a better choice.

But somehow "shouldn't be too hard" doesn't always translate into "easily achieved" in my experience.

Jimro
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Old February 22, 2014, 05:23 AM   #18
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Quote:
...print out the free test target and try it at 50ft.

3 Standing
3 Sitting
3 Prone
I poked around the link you provided and found a 10yd promo target ( http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.p...0;attach=12552 ). That works well for my indoor airgun "range" which tops out at about 10 meters. So I spent some time today playing around with a couple of the 10yd promo targets and one of my airguns to see if my shooting was up to the challenge.

I scored a 39 on the first one I shot and a 40 on the second one and both of those scores fall in the range that the commentary on the promo target suggests is acceptable accuracy.

That gives me some level of confidence that I am in the right neighborhood when it comes to pure accuracy necessary to achieve the standard. Looks like about 4MOA is what's required in that department.

So my questions are:

1. How much of the actual event challenge is based on reloading and other concerns that are more or less peripheral to the most basic issue of hitting what you aim at with a rifle?

2. Would they let me shoot the sitting/kneeling course of fire from the offhand position? My knees don't tolerate either the kneeling or sitting positions well. All things considered, I think I can shoot better standing. I shot offhand on the promo/test targets and it didn't seem to be a handicap.

3. Do they force the use of a sling? I'm not particularly comfortable with a sling, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to attach a sling to the particular rifle I intend to use for the challenge. I shot the promo targets without a sling and seemed to do ok.
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Old February 22, 2014, 08:37 AM   #19
kraigwy
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I don't shoot Appleseed (wont go into why) but I use the shoot the same thing using Sub-Caliber devices with the M16.

It was the CNGB Postal, (Chief of the National Guard Bureau) using the same target as the appleseed.

We had 4 targets, one for Standing, 10 shots in 10 minutes.
Setting 10 shots in 50 seconds, requiring a mag change shooting 2 and 8,
Prone RF 10 shots in 60 seconds, again a mag change 2 and 8.
Prone SF, 20 shots in 20 minutes.

The size of the target represents different ranges. Standing 100 yards, setting was 200 yards, prone was 300 and prone slow fire was 400 yards.

Not as easy as one thinks thought I think my best score was a 249 (forgot how many Vs.

You shot as an individual and a unit team with in the state. The targets were sent to the NGB Marksmanship Unit (Nashville then Little Rock) for scoring. The individual state winner got a belt buckle, and the unit got hats.

The top state unit were sent to the NG MTU (Nashville, then Littler Rock after the NG MTU moved to Camp Robinson) to compete against other states.

I wont the state individual a couple times also the Unit match. Seemed weird, to send a 4 person team from Nome AK (I was CO of a AK Native Unit at the time) to Nashville TN, put them up in a hotel, to shoot 50 rounds of 22s in about 30 minutes, then fly them home. Your tax dollars at work.

It was a lot of fun, but more important, practice and shooting these matches, trying to make the Unit then state team, really increased the marksmanship abilities of the NG Shooters.

To answer John, I don't see how it's possible to successfully compete without a sling.

Taken an the National Shoot at Nashville in the early 80s (damn I was young)

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Old February 22, 2014, 10:17 AM   #20
STEINER
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You don't have to use a sling. It is suggested that you do.
I strongly suggest it.
I shot using the "hasty method" when standing and the "loop on the arm"
while sitting and prone.

You can sit with legs crossed, sit with legs stretched out or kneel.

The issues I had with shooting weren't sight alignment, sight picture and
respiratory pause, etc....
What really slowed me down with the timed shoots was mandatory magizine
changes where I had to turn the rifle and lose my natural point of aim. I need to work on making it smoother with no moving the rifle around.

Quick dissconnect swivels (QD's) are faster and eaiser to use than the
USGI sling clip design for your sling.

Sounds like you are a good shooter from the previous post.
Because you can shoot fairly well... you will really enjoy the two day "Appleseed" clinic.

They really push practicing at home with your dry firing, etc to get ready
for the event. An air rifle would be a great tool for that.
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