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Old February 9, 2014, 06:29 PM   #76
manta49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJSchulze
...And my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot....
I think people should have the sense to know the instructor was talking rubbish without being told. Every situation is different requiring a different response, If an instructor is teaching that then he shouldn't be instructing , in case someone takes him at his word and shoots when they didn't need to. Example you pull your firearm , the bad guy runs shoot him anyway, he puts his hands up shoot him , etc.

Last edited by manta49; February 9, 2014 at 06:38 PM.
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Old February 9, 2014, 10:05 PM   #77
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Awesome

Couldn't have asked for a better outcome.
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Old February 10, 2014, 11:08 AM   #78
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GJSchulze Wrote;
Quote:
That's sort of saying the same thing, but with a different slant.
No Sir, it is a different statement entirely. When you attempt to parse a statement, it loses context, Let's review the Counselors statement in context.

Frank Ettin Wrote;
Quote:
In general you should not draw your gun unless you've concluded that shooting is immediately necessary and justified.
Meaning there is a clear, and present danger, you are in fear of death, or grave injury, the attack at that time is imminent. Mr. Ettin then went on to qualify his statement with information that added the needed context.

Frank Ettin Wrote;
Quote:
But the situation can change quickly upon presentation of your gun, and it's possible that once you have presented your gun the situation may have changed to the point that immediately shooting is not necessary, nor could it be justified.
As Frank added, these situations are not "black and white" they are dynamic by nature. In the case of the OP, the threat ceased to be a threat once he was "menaced" (your term ) into a hasty retreat.

While at first the threat was clear, and drawing and being prepared to fire was immediately necessary and justified, the dynamic of the situation changed immediately. Once the attacker retreated, the threat, and thus the justification for firing, both disappeared.

GJSchulze Wrote;
Quote:
my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot
Had our OP followed this "sketchy" advice he likely would have fired in an un-justifiable manner and, have a world of legal troubles at the moment.
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Old February 10, 2014, 03:04 PM   #79
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Quote:
By the OP;

By the time I decided to reach for my gun, he was only 3 feet away. I gripped my 9mm Beretta Nano that I carried inside the waist band. He noticed and immediately stopped. Now he was about 2 feet away.

He asked me if I wanted to shoot him. All I said was get away from me, get away from my family. I learned that when the adrenaline is pumping, I didn't watch his face, I watched his chest - his heart. I was prepared to draw and shoot. Thankfully, he didn't come any closer and I didn't have to draw.
Gentlemen, the OP never drew his handgun.
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Old February 10, 2014, 03:06 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJSchulze
...And my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot....
And although this is all GJSchulze gave us in his post, I would say it's a fair bet that this wasn't the only thing he had to say and that in one way or another we are taking it out of context. This horse never needed a beatin.
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Old February 10, 2014, 03:24 PM   #81
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I'm glad everything is fine. Happened for a reason, you starting to carry and your curiosity to looking into this forum.

Next time (God forbid) don't go to your intended area or residence. Police station. Or phoning the police and keep driving.

You did great though, you didn't know. It's easy to say this and that after the fact. That isn't what I did though. Just a different course that doesn't come to mind when your nerves are shot.

Also, don't worry about feeling sick and shaky. Happens to most people. I've thrown up before after extreme stress long after all is clear. Really proud of you.
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Old February 10, 2014, 03:35 PM   #82
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What the others have said.

Any encounter you walk away from is an acceptable encounter. In this case you learned some lessons and will be better prepared in the future.

Don't leave home unarmed. In today's society, you simply never know what may happen next.

Well done.
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Old February 13, 2014, 10:03 PM   #83
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Quote:
I can't speak for all areas of the USA, but in my metro area, calling 911 first or being the first person to speak to a responding officer/deputy does not make you the victim or complainant. I've seen it first hand not only as a citizen but as a on duty security officer responding to a call for service.
Here's some additional information from an attorney on the importance of calling the police, and doing so as rapidly as possible.

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/02/repo...w-enforcement/

The article is primarily focused on why it's important to call to report an incident, even when the initial impulse might be to walk away since it was resolved with no shots fired. However, the general principles also apply to the idea of why it can be important to report the incident before the other participant does.
"Because it was the dirt bag who called the police, in both their official reports and in their practical worldview, it is now HE who is the “complainant” of a crime—the presumed “offended party”–and YOU who are the “respondent”—the presumed offending party."
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Old February 13, 2014, 10:25 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
Quote:
I can't speak for all areas of the USA, but in my metro area, calling 911 first or being the first person to speak to a responding officer/deputy does not make you the victim or complainant. I've seen it first hand not only as a citizen but as a on duty security officer responding to a call for service.
Here's some additional information from an attorney on the importance of calling the police, and doing so as rapidly as possible.

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/02/repo...w-enforcement/

The article is primarily focused on why it's important to call to report an incident, even when the initial impulse might be to walk away since it was resolved with no shots fired. However, the general principles also apply to the idea of why it can be important to report the incident before the other participant does.
"Because it was the dirt bag who called the police, in both their official reports and in their practical worldview, it is now HE who is the “complainant” of a crime—the presumed “offended party”–and YOU who are the “respondent”—the presumed offending party."


Also, folks should realize that that flight, which could include simply leaving the scene without reporting the incident, can be used as evidence of guilt. Here's what some cases say:

  • State v. Walker, 595 P.2d 1098 (Kan., 1979), at 1099 - 1100:
    Quote:
    ...the general rule that evidence of flight may be admissible in order to establish the defendant's consciousness of guilt. 29 Am.Jur.2d, Evidence § 280; 22A C.J.S. Criminal Law § 625; ...
    ...
    It is well settled that conduct of the accused following the commission of an alleged crime may be circumstantially relevant to prove both the commission of the acts charged and the intent and purpose for which those acts were committed. Among such conduct is flight of the accused...
  • State v. Quiroz, 772 N.W.2d 710 (Wis. App., 2009), at 716:
    Quote:
    ...It is well established that evidence of flight has probative value as to guilt. See State v. Knighten, 212 Wis.2d 833, 838-39, 569 N.W.2d 770 (Ct.App.1997). Analytically, flight is an admission by conduct. State v. Miller, 231 Wis.2d 447, 460, 605 N.W.2d 567 (Ct.App.1999). The fact of an accused's flight is generally admissible against the accused as circumstantial evidence of consciousness of guilt and thus of guilt itself....
  • State v. Robinson, 360 S.C. 187 (S.C. App., 2004), at 195:
    Quote:
    ...See also State v. Beckham, 334 S.C. 302, 315, 513 S.E.2d 606, 612 (1999) (stating that evidence of flight has been held to constitute evidence of guilty knowledge and intent); State v. Grant, 275 S.C. 404, 407, 272 S.E.2d 169, 171 (1980) ("[A]ttempts to run away have always been regarded as some evidence of guilty knowledge and intent.") (internal quotation marks omitted); State v. Ballenger, 322 S.C. 196, 200, 470 S.E.2d 851, 854 (1996) (noting that flight is "at least some evidence" of defendant's guilt); State v. Thompson, 278 S.C. 1, 10-11, 292 S.E.2d 581, 587 (1982), .... (finding evidence of flight admissible to show guilty knowledge, intent, and that defendant sought to avoid apprehension); State v. Freely, 105 S.C. 243, 89 S.E. 643 (1916) (declaring the flight of one charged with a crime has always been held to be some evidence tending to prove guilt);...
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Old February 14, 2014, 03:46 PM   #85
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On the TV news today there was coverage of the Jacksonville, FL trial of the man who is alleged to have shot into a car full of teenagers because of loud music (although he says he was threatened by what appeared to be a shotgun). The TV personality/lawyers on the show were asking, "If his story is true, why didn't he call the police? Why did he leave the scene?"

Not a lawyer and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but it seems to me that even if you aren't automatically the good guy for phoning it in, doing so at least quashes such questions about the veracity of your story.
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Old February 14, 2014, 05:27 PM   #86
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Quote:
By TailGator;
...doing so at least quashes such questions about the veracity of your story.
I wouldn't go so far as to say this, but you you shouldn't get asked these questions.
Quote:
Why didn't he call the police?
Why did he leave the scene?
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Old February 14, 2014, 08:35 PM   #87
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Quote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say this, but you you shouldn't get asked these questions.
Quote:
Why didn't he call the police?
Why did he leave the scene?
I would add one more question to the list that you don't want to be asked:

Why did he wait so long to call the police?
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Old February 15, 2014, 02:54 PM   #88
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I tell everyone that you should not let anyone get closer then 5 yards from you. Preferably you want the hostile person as far away as possible but within 5 yards becomes the no-fly zone. At 2 feet the attacker could have taken the pistol away from you.

When someone is getting close you yell at them commands "Get back! Dont come closer!" When you perceive a person is a clear and present danger to yourself then you draw and aim the weapon accordingly yelling commands. "Stop or I will fire" "Get back or I will fire!" "Turn around and get back!" At the same time of drawing the weapon you want to increase distance from the hostile person preferably getting behind cover. Always use every opportunity to retreat back not forwards.

If they continue the charge into the no-fly zone then decisions have to be made. If you fire then you can expect litigation and charges against yourself as well as bad press ruining your reputation. If you dont fire then the pistol might be taken away and used against you.

The moral of the story is to do whatever you can to prevent a confrontation. Each situation is different in that regard, but do whatever you can to prevent it. The use of a firearm on a person should be as a last resort and it should be obvious to all why it was used. Only in circumstances of clear and present danger. You should be able to articulate what steps you took to try to prevent the encounter such as yelling at the man to stop, trying to retreat away, etc. It should be clear and obvious there was nothing else that you could do.

Dealing with the police on any firearms related matter alone is not a good idea. You should preferably deal with police through an attorney even if you are confident what you did was right. I know I will get a lot of contrary advice objecting to that statement, but my opinion is its a good idea to deal with police through attornies. Thats what they are there for. They protect our rights and the police should be dealt with through a legal representative. Right next to your ccw permit should be the business card to an attorney. Right after you call the police then you call the attorney. Dont just train at the range but train for the court room. Just my two cents.

Last edited by johnelmore; February 15, 2014 at 03:06 PM.
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Old February 15, 2014, 06:59 PM   #89
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Wow, glad it all worked out.

I'm not offering critiques. Others have done a great job at suggestions.

Continue to train and be vigilant, and get your wife on board with training and carrying for these same reasons. Women are particularly vulnerable.

Continue to play out scenarios. For most Americans, driving accidents and road rage are the most dangerous daily situations we put ourselves in. Plan this out. Defensive driving skills are very important. Always try to have situational awareness and give yourself room to maneuver in your car.

I see very angry people on the road all the time and try to get away from these folks, and also play out scenarios if they follow me or worse...

Glad you were able to defend yourself and family.
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Old February 17, 2014, 09:40 PM   #90
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Quote:
Why did he leave the scene?
This could be easily rebutted with, "because someone was trying to kill me."

Of course, you should be running to a phone booth, not calling police the next day... Michael Dunn's story is like Chappaquiddick with a gun.
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Old February 17, 2014, 10:57 PM   #91
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Get training ASAP to remove doubt about when you can act and what you need to.

1) Any two day defensive handgun course.
2) Craig Douglas' ECQC course.

You will learn how to create space and how to handle a close range situation in ECQC.

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Old February 18, 2014, 01:42 PM   #92
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splinter MBA,

Just read your post at the top.

GOOD JOB.

Yes mistakes were made but hey, it is never perfect on the street.

But you had the weapon accessible, you saw the danger, and made a good move.

And your learning curve just went up 10x and you will be wiser if there is a next time.

Yes a 9mm Nano in the hand beats a 1911 or Glock 20 in the gun safe.

Happy no one was hurt and yes calling the cops was a good move to!

Say, maybe you will get to take a course from Massad Ayoob. He's the real deal.

Anyway, well done!

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Old March 29, 2014, 03:36 PM   #93
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You did well to survive, many do not, many more spend the rest of their lives in a nursing home. We carry Fox or DPS pepper spray for intermediate situations. Glocks for keeps. I would call It in as a road rage incident while driving. This is for liability protection not any expectation of police intervention.
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Old March 29, 2014, 04:33 PM   #94
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All in all, good job I say. I wouldn't have stopped at my intended location, but I wasn't there so will not armchair warrior.

I too would be out of the car facing the threat. Too vulnerable sitting in the car with the attacker able to approach from any side, and if he is armed with a firearm, you and your family are extremely vulnerable.

Care to share what load you were carrying in your Nano? I too am often carrying one.

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Old December 8, 2014, 04:49 PM   #95
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I know it has been a while since I posted on this thread, but I wanted to post a few updates now that I've had time to think it over more.

I still carry my 9mm Nano loaded with Winchester 124 grain +p hollow points. It has become a trusted companion. It's weird, since the incident I have almost personified my gun. I carry it everyday, everywhere, including work (And I work at a college. In Utah it is legal to do so.) I practice at the range and drawing at home.

Perhaps the most important thing I've been able to adapt is a more mature attitude and I'm actively avoiding these kinds of confrontations. I'm not saying I was immature when this incident happened, just that now I take carrying much more seriously. And when driving, I let people in front of me. I give the "thank you" wave when people let me merge in traffic. I've tried to get better at avoiding the confrontations.

Also, in hindsight I'm not sure if the attacker got a glimpse at my gun. He might have seen the back sights peering over my belt, but I'm not so sure. I think that fact that I was reaching for my hip was a universal signal to him that I was armed, or might be armed. For this reason, I always carry in the same place. I won't say it's the best, but it's an added level of comfort.

As for my gun, I'm saving up for a larger one. I love my Nano, but I would feel better having it's big brother (PX4 Storm) on my hip and the Nano on my ankle.

To sum it up, the phrase "speak softly and carry a big stick" has new meaning to me.
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Old December 8, 2014, 06:24 PM   #96
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Glad to hear an update and that you are doing well.

The last year or so I have been experimenting with something new for me. Smiling at people when I catch their eye. I have found that and a cheerful disposition helps defuse a lot of tense situations before they develop. Given I work security and deal with drunk idiots all night at work and have no interest in getting in any more fights then I have to, this has helped me a lot.
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Old December 8, 2014, 07:36 PM   #97
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I am glad you and yours are ok.

A buddy of mine had a similar situation occur. The road rage follower called the police as well after seeing the gun. It cost my buddy about $10,000 to an attorney to keep his freedom, employment, and his right to possess firearms. They called it disorderly conduct of some kind for showing the weapon. There are always 2 sides to every story. His wife was with him at the time. She was afraid and says if the situation occurs again, they would wind up doing the same thing.
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Old December 10, 2014, 06:16 PM   #98
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As others have said, two-feet is too close.

If you don't know about the Tueller Drill, you can find it HERE. The drill, performed by Tueller, discovered that it only takes 1.5 seconds for a person to cross a distance of 21 feet and stab you, and that it also takes 1.5 seconds to draw and fire a gun from an exposed holster. This would suggest that you have to react to a threat well beyond 21 feet. I would consider someone to have "Opportunity" if they were any closer than 42 feet (~3 seconds away), simply based on reactionary gap (action beats reaction). We all have OODA loops, even the perp. The added distance will give him time to recognize he is about to be shot then decide whether or not he wants to continue the assault.

In court we are judged by the "reasonable and prudent person" standard (a hypothetical person that exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct). What is considered to be "reasonable" stems from a persons experience and formal / informal training. The reason training, reading court cases, self-defense books, news articles, etc... is so important is because the more you know AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACK, the better you'll be able to defend yourself in court should you be prosecuted. The trick for the private citizen is being able to PROVE that you possessed certain knowledge at the time of the attack. Example: In New York, People v. Magliato, judge Thomas Sullivan would not allow expert testimony on the Tueller Drill because Magliato had no prior knowledge of the Tueller Drill at the time of the attack. Magliato was found guilty.

Last year I attended the MAG20 class as offered by the Massad Ayoob Group (highly recommended) and learned how to properly document training. Essentially, when you take classroom training, take a lot of notes. After class, research your notes and fill in the blanks so that partial thoughts become complete concepts. Print news articles and court cases for out-of-the-ordinary events: Disparity of force cases, being hit with shod foot or fist rising to the level of great bodily harm and reports/cases where complying with the demands of a criminal can still get you killed. Compile a list of the books you have purchased and read. Package up all this information and mail it to yourself USPS registered and certified (Ayoob suggests multiple packages kept in multiple locations). Should you ever need to "authenticate" your training and the knowledge that you had at the time of the shooting, the package is to be examined and opened "in the well of the court".

Its often asked, "when can I draw and or fire my gun?" - In class Ayoob presented something that nicely aligned the color-codes of awareness and levels of proof to help in the decision-making process.....

Levels of Proof (low to high)
  1. Mere suspicion (MS): Beliefs are unfounded. You are making a wild-ass-guess.
  2. Articulable suspicion (AS): (if you cannot explain it, don't do it!).
  3. Probable cause (PC): Grey area between suspicion and proof. Can be less than 50% certainty.
  4. Preponderance of the evidence (POE): Gray area between suspicion and proof but with greater than 50% certainty.
  5. Beyond a reasonable doubt (BARD): 95% to 99.9% certainty.

Color Codes of Awareness
  • White: You are not aware of your surroundings
  • Yellow: You are aware of your surroundings (relaxed awareness)
  • Orange: Unspecified alert. Danger exists but not yet known. Look for the "target stare", whats in peoples hands.
  • Red: Threat has identified itself (fight or flight). Will experience high level of body alarm response.
  • Black: The lethal assault is underway and someone is trying to kill you.

When can you draw your firearm and or shoot someone?
  1. Mere Suspicion and condition WHITE: Never draw gun.
  2. Articulable Suspicion and condition YELLOW: Never draw gun.
  3. Probable Cause and condition ORANGE: Never draw gun.
  4. Preponderance of the Evidence and condition RED: Take at gunpoint.
  5. Beyond a Reasonable Doubt and condition BLACK: Fire your gun.
Note: If you are holding someone at gunpoint and they continue their advance, a reasonable person should conclude that the perp believes that they have the skill to take your gun away from you and use it on you.

Criminals are experts at reading body language. They have to be because selecting the wrong "victim" can mean injury or death. So, it doesn't surprise me when I read about potential victims reaching for the 4-oclock position, unarmed, in a attempt to deter a possible assault. Happened to me once, early morning while taking out the trash. I was being "interviewed" by two males as they stepped off the alley onto my driveway, "hey what's in the can?" and while I was backing-up, slid my hand into my front pocked and replied, "why don't you take a look." - The "mouth" raised his hands with a smile and laugh like it was all a big joke and they corrected course and kept walking.

Few months ago on a Sunday morning at about 4:50AM I was stopped at a red light waiting to turn left and noted a car opposite me waiting to turn right and travel in my same direction. They rode my bumper for a 1/4 mile and so I sped up to ~50MPH in a 45. They dropped back about 8 to 10 seconds. I drove another 1.5 miles turning into a gas station (that I discovered was closed), pulled up to a pump, turned the SUV off and was about to open my door when out of the corner of my eye I caught motion.. the car that had been following me rolled into the parking lot, did a wide turn and parked next to the building, crossing 5 or 6 parking spots, facing me with the lights on about ~40 feet away. I couldn't see into their car because they left their lights on and I was parked under more lights so they could clearly see me. We watched each other for about three seconds and that's how long it took me to realize that something bad was likely to happen. I did the long-reach over to the glove box, pulled out my Glock and un-holstered it. In the amount of time it took to retrieve my gun, the person or persons in the other vehicle came to the conclusion that they selected the wrong victim (by my furtive movement). They slowly rolled out of the parking lot, stopped about 150-200 yards down the road for about 5 to 10 seconds then left. A few seconds after they were gone, another car rolled into the lot whom I recognized as an employee. This episode is the closest I have come to actually knowing with a high degree of certainty that I was in danger. Still bugs me.

Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy and Preclusion (AOJ-P)

Ability to cause great bodily harm (GBH)
  • Gun
  • Contact weapon (knife, bat, pipe, screwdriver, camera tripod, Taser)
  • Disparity of Force
    • Male attacking female
    • Multiple attackers (force in numbers)
    • Larger and stronger versus a smaller and weaker person
    • Young versus the elderly
    • Able-bodied versus the disabled
    • Medical condition of the victim (on blood thinners, back surgery, asthma, physical fitness, etc...)
    • Skilled versus unskilled fighter (training in the destructive arts - must be known to the victim at the time of the attack.)
    • Reputation of the attacker (must be known to the victim at the time of the attack)
Opportunity to utilize their "Ability" to cause GBH
  • Distance (time and obstacles)
  • Opportunity nearly always exists with firearms
  • More of a consideration with contact weapons
  • Tueller Drill
Jeopardy
  • The persons actions and or words would suggest that the threat is real (as opposed to imagined) and the threat of GBH is immediate
Preclusion
  • A consideration placed upon the victim
  • The victim did nothing to escalate the altercation
  • The victim is innocent of any wrongdoing
  • The victim did everything that could have reasonably been done to avoid using deadly force
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Old December 13, 2014, 10:48 PM   #99
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You had a lot more information about the situation than can be detailed in a one page or less post when you made your decision. The outcome was about as good as one could hope for, so I can't say you made any mistakes.

I will say:
You chose not to use your firearm when you let the possible assailant close on you. A pistol at three feet is a real mess, especially when you have family within a few feet. There are MANY situations where maintaining distance is not possible, but it is important to know what to do when you get to just a couple feet. Does one pull a pistol at all? How does one retain the pistol? How do you hold an assailant at bay with your off hand while shielding you gun hand and keeping all your body parts out of the line of fire.

A must have for a shooting range, IMO, is a car. Not as a target, but to practice from various positions in and around a car.
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