The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 2, 2014, 10:53 PM   #1
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 2,029
Old Rem 700 trigger problem .

I was at the range the other day and my buddy brought his 700 bolt action in 270 . He had bought it used a few months ago . I believe it was made in the mid 70s .

He called me over to his bench and said the gun would not fire . I started looking the rifle over . The bolt was working fine but the trigger was rock solid . It would not move , It was like the safety was on or something . I played with the safety a bit clicking it back and forth and worked the bolt a few times and got the trigger to drop the hammer .

I went ahead worked the bolt again put the safety back on and when I pushed the back to the fire position the hammer dropped I just sat there thinking thank goodness I did not put a round in it yet . I worked the bolt and safety a few more times and it did it again . This gun would be firing if there was a round in the chamber when the safety is disengaged .

I had read about the older 700s having this issue but was told and read it was a bunch a bull . I'm hear to tell you I watched it happen 3 times yesterday while I was operating the rifle .

The fact the rifle was used we have no idea if anybody had tinkered with the trigger . Alls I know is that Remington 700 is unsafe . I told my buddy he needs to take it to a gunsmith and ask if it looked like it had any work done to it then send it to Remington to see what they have to say .

Any of you seen this first had ?

Should he send it to Remington or just put a new after market trigger in it and call it a day ?
__________________
As of this date 8-18-14 at 6:42am I became a proud grandfather I guess I'm officially old
Metal god is online now  
Old February 2, 2014, 11:02 PM   #2
AllenJ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,322
If it were me I would just put a Timney in it and call it good. I don't know if the Walker trigger is as bad as some say but in your friends case why take a chance.
AllenJ is offline  
Old February 3, 2014, 12:28 AM   #3
hoghunting
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 27, 2006
Posts: 1,353
I'd also put a Timney trigger in it as that's what all mine have. If you pull the barreled action from the stock betting you'll see the epoxy has been scraped from the adjusting screws and the trigger group was never flushed.
hoghunting is offline  
Old February 3, 2014, 12:44 AM   #4
ndking1126
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2008
Location: One house left of my neig
Posts: 1,645
My dad has an old Remington 700 that did the exact same thing.. only we had a round in the chamber. Thankfully it was sitting on a lead sled and that contained the recoil and even more thankfully we were practicing good safety and it was pointing downrange at all times. It's at the 'smith now... Get a new trigger and never give it a second thought. Its nothing to be too worried about as long as you replace the trigger before putting a bullet in the chamber. it's a mechanical device and it will wear out at some point.
__________________
The Jeep has been a lot of fun, but time to come back to my first hobby.. shooting.

Last edited by ndking1126; February 3, 2014 at 12:51 AM.
ndking1126 is offline  
Old February 3, 2014, 08:02 AM   #5
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 6,018
I have a 1974 made rifle that has done the same thing on occasion over the years. Unloaded each time just line yours. My rifle is retired now and no longer used, but may get another trigger eventually. I never wanted to send mine back to Remington because they would have just replaced it with another identical trigger with the same flawed design. I will go with an aftermarket trigger.

I've spent years doing tons of research on this. Trust me, any Remington made 1946-2006 with the Walker trigger design could do this at any time. Or never do it.
jmr40 is offline  
Old February 3, 2014, 08:21 AM   #6
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,351
I've got many Remington 700's, with original triggers & never experience the dreaded "ghost fire"... I don't doubt it happens, just never had it happen on any of mine ( which now total 7-8 ranging from late 60's, early 70's, to my newest, which is 100th anniversary of the 30-06 model )... so I'd expect one of a couple possible causes... 1st... adjusting the trigger too lightly, or improperly ( without correct sear contact ) 2nd... gummy mechanism... previously sprayed with WD-40, or other lubrication, that has gummed up over time... 3rd... dust, lint, a grain of un-burned, or ashed stick powder, or some other foreign material in the mechanism...

if the gun was bought used, & could have sat a long time in someones gun safe, & thus, just be gummed up... try spraying the trigger mechanism down with gun scrubber, & inspect the contact surfaces, for wear or improper adjustment ( if you are comfortable doing so... or have a competent gunsmith do so ) I would be hesitant to send it to Remington for a couple reasons... if the rifle is consistently dropping the hammer, you'll likely get the rifle back, with a trigger that takes 2 fingers to pull ( lawyers )... so if you can't get the original to function correctly, or just want to err on the side of safety... just replace it with one of the awesome aftermarket triggers for the rifle
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is online now  
Old February 3, 2014, 10:30 AM   #7
Dc777
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2013
Location: South West, Alabama
Posts: 605
Was the gun thoroughly cleaned after your buddy bought it?
__________________
NRA member

Paintings were made to look at, and guns were made to be shot. If you aren't going to use them as they are intended for, get rid of them and buy a Picasso.
Dc777 is offline  
Old February 3, 2014, 10:41 AM   #8
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 2,029
Quote:
Was the gun thoroughly cleaned after your buddy bought it?
I would say yes but really no . Yes he gave it a good cleaning but the barreled action was never out of the stock . so no not a thorough out of the stock trigger inspecting cleaning . He would not have known what to look for and I'm noy sure I would have either .
__________________
As of this date 8-18-14 at 6:42am I became a proud grandfather I guess I'm officially old
Metal god is online now  
Old February 3, 2014, 01:22 PM   #9
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 2,029
Here is a trigger I would like to recommend but wanted to be sure it will fit his rifle . How do you know for sure what trigger fits .
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/220...ProductFinding

Saw this in the reviews
Quote:
This trigger was a huge let down. I can't adjust the trigger below 4LBS without the bolt firing on it's own doing the bolt slam test.
bolt slam test ? I assume that is what it sounds like . any thoughts on that ?
__________________
As of this date 8-18-14 at 6:42am I became a proud grandfather I guess I'm officially old
Metal god is online now  
Old February 3, 2014, 05:42 PM   #10
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,092
I thought I read someplace the Walker triggers had a Rem factory call back for any made before 1982. You might want to check on that and see if the call back still apply's.
Otherwise a used walker trigger or hello Timney or Jewell. But before any change out I would try to figure out just what its problem is. Perhaps its out of adjustment or misaligned and just needs to be reset to original specs. But to do that I suspect you need the use of a Trigger Pull Gauge. That's a tool you can find on amazon.com a site where I bought mine and about the cheapest place to buy them. I've never taken a Walker Trigger apart for a look see. But I bet someone else here has and can tell you what to expect or even if it can be accomplished. Good luck with the repair.
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old February 3, 2014, 05:51 PM   #11
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,814
Seems like either congealed WD-40 or corrosion in the trigger mechanism. Bad adjustment, especially too little pre-travel might also have contributed to the problem.

Either take it to a gunsmith or replace the trigger with either a Timney or Shilen. Both are fine as the come. No adjustment needed.

Also, IMHO, NEVER let any WD-40 get anywhere near the internals of any firearm.
Picher is online now  
Old February 3, 2014, 05:59 PM   #12
flashhole
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2005
Location: Owego, NY
Posts: 1,302
Sounds like someone adjusted it too light. There are some good "How To" adjust the Rem 700 trigger on YouTube. I adjusted mine to a lighter pull and discovered the same happenstance you reported. Backed it off a bit and never a problem. One empty gun test I did on recommmendation of a smith was to cock it, put it on safe and rap the butt stock on the floor with a moderate amount of force (akin to dropping your gun). Do it a few times. If it goes off with a moderate jolt it's adjusted too light.
__________________
Gun control is hitting what you aim at..
flashhole is offline  
Old February 3, 2014, 08:30 PM   #13
Rmart30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Posts: 435
$100 for a timney and about 10 minutes time and anyone can put one in..
They even come preset to your desired pull weight that you specify when ordering.
__________________
Jetguns.com When you want better service from a online gun seller and someplace that actually will talk to you on the phone unlike "Duds" gun shop, try them.

http://www.gunbanobama.com <---MUST READ
Rmart30 is offline  
Old February 3, 2014, 09:54 PM   #14
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 2,029
He's had the gun for a little less then a year now . I've shot it a few times , maybe 20rds or so . All I remember about the rifle is that it was very accurate and the trigger pull was very heavy . It by far was one of the heaviest triggers I've ever pulled on a rifle .

That to me tells me that it was not adjusted to light and in fact may have some sort of other problem . I spoke with him today about a new trigger and possibly sending it back . He seemed open to either . We're going shooting on the 15th . I'll have him bring it over and I'll break it down and take a look at the trigger .
__________________
As of this date 8-18-14 at 6:42am I became a proud grandfather I guess I'm officially old
Metal god is online now  
Old February 3, 2014, 11:52 PM   #15
treefarmernc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2009
Posts: 185
Same thing happened to me back around 1995 with my stepfather’s model 700 22-250. Switching the safety to the fire position fired the rifle. We were able to recreate it a couple more times. In this case as well as most other cases (according to my own research) the malfunction was due the gun not being properly cleaned. This also is what Remington has stated as being the problem along with tampering with the trigger. The gun had not been dismantled and cleaned since it was bought in the 70’s. The gun received a thorough cleaning and has not had a problem since.
__________________
The mightiest oak in the forest was once only a little nut that stuck its ground.
treefarmernc is offline  
Old February 4, 2014, 12:18 AM   #16
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 2,029
Quote:
In this case as well as most other cases (according to my own research) the malfunction was due the gun not being properly cleaned. This also is what Remington has stated as being the problem along with tampering with the trigger.
This is not a knock on you , just using the quote for point of reference
I have read some of those very same things . IMO those may be reasons why there poor design malfunctions but is in no way a good excuse why there firearm will discharge when the shooter does not have his finger on the trigger . I don't know about most of you guys but I've owned a few guns in my life . I've always been a clean freak when it comes to taking care of them but I rarely take the action out of the stock to clean the trigger mechanism . How many of you do that ? I can just see me poking and or brushing at all those small parts and making it worse . My luck I'd bend a spring or misalign some crucial part and make the firearm more dangerous . Heck That very thing happened to me with a 10/22 . I was cleaning the trigger group and a pin slid out just enough to let a couple part come loose . Took me an hour and some you tube videos to get it back together . To this day when I shoot it I wonder if it's going to work . It seems to me if your going to have a firearm malfunction . You want it not to work at all not fire when your not intending it too.

My point is just because there is a reason something is happening . That does not make it OK
__________________
As of this date 8-18-14 at 6:42am I became a proud grandfather I guess I'm officially old
Metal god is online now  
Old February 4, 2014, 01:33 AM   #17
hoghunting
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 27, 2006
Posts: 1,353
Quote:
Here is a trigger I would like to recommend but wanted to be sure it will fit his rifle . How do you know for sure what trigger fits .
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/220...ProductFinding

Saw this in the reviews
Quote:
This trigger was a huge let down. I can't adjust the trigger below 4LBS without the bolt firing on it's own doing the bolt slam test.
bolt slam test ? I assume that is what it sounds like . any thoughts on that ?
Yes that is the trigger made for the 700 and will fit your friend's rifle. Apparently the reviewer did not read the instructions that came with the trigger as there is a sear engagement adjustment that would prevent a slam fire.
hoghunting is offline  
Old February 4, 2014, 02:25 PM   #18
treefarmernc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2009
Posts: 185
Your point is well taken and has credit.

My thinking is driven towards that any mechanical device is capable of failing when neglected. With that said, I do not tear down my rifles all the way to the trigger assembly after every use either. I do pull mine out of the stock about once a year to clean the trigger. Usually just blasting it with RemOil or cleaner of choice and dabbing off excess oil will do the job without poking at it too much.

In the case of my stepfather’s gun he just used Carb and Choke cleaner then wiped on some type of gun oil to get his back in shape.

I will go as far as saying that the old trigger could be improved upon, but to say that a trigger that has served many thousands of owners including our military without fail a poor design is IMO going a little far.

I do believe that one must have confidence in the safety of his or her gun so changing the trigger would be warranted if there is any doubt in the original assembly.
__________________
The mightiest oak in the forest was once only a little nut that stuck its ground.
treefarmernc is offline  
Old February 4, 2014, 03:14 PM   #19
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,570
Metal God,

A used rifle will not be under warranty as far as I know, so the best thing your buddy can do is buy a replacement trigger. I've used Timney's and they are very good, and I can't recomment them enough.

"Tricking" a Rem trigger can happen, although it is normally the result of someone futzing with the trigger and not a trigger malfunction. The USMC Scout Sniper school changed the doctrine to keep snipers from stoning the triggers on their own which often resulted in a trigger that could be "tricked." What did the USMC do about all those triggers that had been honed too much? They bought more triggers straight from Remington.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old February 5, 2014, 01:25 AM   #20
ronl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Posts: 783
Most probably,as mentioned before, the trigger was never cleaned, and gunk building up in it will certainly cause that malfunction. I've "fixed" problems like that by simply pulling the rifle out of the stock and cleaning the trigger well with brake cleaner. I really like the older triggers because they can be made to work very well. The problem can certainly occur when people monkey with the trigger improperly and do not perform the safety checks afterward. I have seen it happen when people, unused to the lighter trigger pull, throw the safety with their finger still in the trigger guard and pull the trigger inadvertently. There is also the possibility of an adjusted trigger screw backing out. I will use finger polish on it to insure that it does not happen. I was told quite a while ago never to put oil on a trigger, as it will trap any dust and dirt it comes into contact with. I follow that advice. Above all, never put any WD 40 on a trigger.
ronl is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 12:08 PM   #21
davem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2004
Posts: 333
The Walker trigger, until a few days ago I didn't understand how it worked. What I thought was- the trigger pivoted on a pin, the area above the trigger rested on (under) the sear. When you pulled the trigger back the top area moved forward, off the sear that could then drop down, releasing the firing pin.
In order to obtain a patent the function needed to be unique so a cover was put over the top of the trigger. It's called a connector and it is free floating and held in place by the trigger pull spring pushing it against the trigger. If the gun is on safe you can normally pull the trigger and it moves the top forward away from the sear but the safety is holding the firing pin so nothing happens. When you let go of the trigger the trigger pull spring pushes the connector and trigger back under the sear. All is good. BUT if dirt gets between the connector and trigger or the safety wasn't pushed all the way, etc- it is possible if you pull the trigger while the safety is on for the trigger to go back but the edge of the sear catches on the connector. Nothing is holding the sear but the safety and as soon as you release the safety the gun fires. The instructions on my Remington call for cleaning the trigger on a regular basis and advising that excess oil, etc can render the gun extremely dangerous.
As I understand it, you can epoxy glue the connector to the trigger and there is no problem but you then need a gunsmith to true up the angles of engagement.
I don't know of any gunsmiths that do such work but would be interested to find one.
Walker, when he designed the safety wanted a trigger lock- so folks couldn't be pulling the trigger while the gun was on safety.
WHAT TO DO? Since 5 million have been sold. You really can't say it is a HUGE safety issue. Some basic rules apply:
1: Don't play with/test the trigger while the safety is on.
2. Keep the trigger manitained- cleaned.
3. Don't over rely on the safety, keep the chamber empty until in a tree stand. etc.
4. The trigger is not designed to operate with a pull under 3 pounds. From what I've read 3 1/2 lb is okay.
It helps a lot just to understand how the trigger functions.
I may be wrong but I think a Timney trigger is basically the Walker where there is no connector and the parts are better polished/fitted.
davem is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 05:43 PM   #22
flashhole
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2005
Location: Owego, NY
Posts: 1,302
dave - too bad they don't have a like button. Nice post.
__________________
Gun control is hitting what you aim at..
flashhole is offline  
Old February 7, 2014, 02:05 AM   #23
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,499
My first deer rifle was a .308 Rem Model 600. The 600 has the same trigger (essentially) that the 700 does, and as a teenager, I tinkered with it extensively.

You can easily adjust the trigger so the rifle is unsafe. Also, once moved, the adjustment screws can move "on their own", so some kind of threadlocker is a really good idea.

Dirt, thick oil (either from age, or extreme cold) can cause the mechanism to "stick". Simple proper PM and the right (or no) lube and the problem never seems to happen.

BUT, Remington did do a recall on the 600 series rifles, many years before the "issues" with the 700 trigger ever came to light.

My opinion, cared for properly and properly adjusted (and maintained in proper adjustment) you won't see the problem.

HOWEVER, if it bothers you, replacement triggers are easy to come by, only takes money and a few minutes work.

OR, you can just keep the mechanism clean, and as an extra added precaution, have a little metal work done on the safety.

There is a "leg" on the safety that locks the bolt shut when the safety is "on". Remove this, and you can open the bolt and unload the gun with the safety on. SO, if it does stick (fires when the safety is moved to "off"), if you have unloaded it, there is no safety problem.

I understand this mod is being done by Remington to the guns they get for repair, and new ones.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 7, 2014, 08:54 AM   #24
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,814
I always check 700 triggers on my rifles that haven't been used for a while... and others that come in for work.

A simple test to determine whether a Rem 700 trigger is operating properly is to open the bolt (on an unloaded rifle), then press and release the trigger to see if it freely and strongly returns to it's forward position. A weak return that isn't consistent to it's forward position may be a problem trigger.

Press and release it several times to see if it gets easier to pull or releases more easily with use. If the return is positive each time, the trigger is operating normally. If the return is less than a pound, doesn't have spring tension all the way forward, and/or is very short, the trigger may need cleaning and/or adjustment.

Benchrest guys recommend cleaning trigger mechanisms with lighter fluid, since it cleans well and provides a bit of lubrication. (Don't smoke or have any flames nearby.)
Picher is online now  
Old February 7, 2014, 10:03 AM   #25
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 2,029
He bought the new trigger and I'll be helping him put it in soon .I have not had a chance to look at it yet . I'll update when that happens
__________________
As of this date 8-18-14 at 6:42am I became a proud grandfather I guess I'm officially old
Metal god is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13239 seconds with 9 queries