The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old February 5, 2014, 04:33 PM   #51
Saltydog235
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2010
Location: Pawleys Island
Posts: 1,168
Well, good to know limitations are realized by the OP. Glad you're on top of the clarification moderation as well.
Saltydog235 is offline  
Old February 5, 2014, 05:22 PM   #52
Baba Louie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2001
Posts: 1,497
Couple years back I sold one of my old long barreled M96 Swedes (1909 CG) to a youngster. He came by last week and bought my 38 and told me he was now hitting steel consistently (8 out of 10) at 960 yds using open sights... so I'd say that type of rifle using that round (6.5x55) might fit the bill, unless of course you don't trust 104 year old rifles...
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address
Baba Louie is offline  
Old February 5, 2014, 10:41 PM   #53
rdavidsonjr
Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2014
Posts: 76
Correction : Best 1000 yard rifle

For further clarification-the only reason I used the term DEER in the original post was to make clear that I was talking about any round that was between 243 and 308 at killing deer size game. I didn't won't to include anything below 243 or above 308 due to recoil . I don't posses the skills I suppose to get all that into one line. Again I apologize for my ignorance if that helps. Thanks for the input from all it has been enlightening and I welcome all input because that makes it more interesting.
rdavidsonjr is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 11:54 AM   #54
Panfisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 718
I would think that any round capable of 1000 yard competition has more than enough energy (given proper bullet construction and shot placement) to easily and cleanly harvest a deer at 400 yards.
Panfisher is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 12:56 PM   #55
eldermike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 545
Time of flight is an important consideration as is retained energy. Low BC plays heck on some of the faster MV calibers once you get past 300 yards. So BC and MV considered = a 264 win mag. So now after thinking about it I have no idea why this is not the ideal 1000 yard rifle, that could also be a deer rifle. Note: I sold one because I just didn't like it.
eldermike is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 01:47 PM   #56
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,529
lots of things come into play but one of the biggest factors is the ballistic coefficient of the bullets used. right now the two best ballistic coefficient calibers are 6.5mm(.264) and 7mm(.284). so in that regard I would be willing to guess that a 260rem using a 120gr bullet or 7mm-08 would offer the tightest groups.

HOWEVER!!!

I am willing to wager that 99% of all hunters couldn't even hit a deer at 1000 yards, no less hit the kill zone and if if could the bullet would be travelling too slow to do anything. many of the higher BC bullets require 1600 FPS velocity to open reliably there are very few calibers that still have that speed at 1000 yards. there is also the "energy equation" it is commonly accepted that you need at least 1000 FTLBs of energy to cleanly take an animal, now I have killed deer with a 3rd of that energy so I know that's not really an accurate requirement but I do think that to be on the safe side for deer you should probably try to have at least 500FTLBs which again, many calibers can not muster at 1000 yards...
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 01:55 PM   #57
Saltydog235
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2010
Location: Pawleys Island
Posts: 1,168
Quote:
lots of things come into play but one of the biggest factors is the ballistic coefficient of the bullets used. right now the two best ballistic coefficient calibers are 6.5mm(.264) and 7mm(.284). so in that regard I would be willing to guess that a 260rem using a 120gr bullet or 7mm-08 would offer the tightest groups.

HOWEVER!!!

I am willing to wager that 99% of all hunters couldn't even hit a deer at 1000 yards, no less hit the kill zone and if if could the bullet would be travelling too slow to do anything. many of the higher BC bullets require 1600 FPS velocity to open reliably there are very few calibers that still have that speed at 1000 yards. there is also the "energy equation" it is commonly accepted that you need at least 1000 FTLBs of energy to cleanly take an animal, now I have killed deer with a 3rd of that energy so I know that's not really an accurate requirement but I do think that to be on the safe side for deer you should probably try to have at least 500FTLBs which again, many calibers can not muster at 1000 yards...
Should have gotten you to write my response to the thread. Pretty much what I was getting at all along.
Saltydog235 is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 01:56 PM   #58
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Holy crap. It's freaking epidemic.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 01:58 PM   #59
overthere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2012
Posts: 186
This thread should be put out of its misery... I have resorted to using it as a drinking game, I have to take a shot everytime someone replies as to the feasibility / appropriateness of shooting a deer at a 1000 yards and I am getting pretty drunk
overthere is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 02:19 PM   #60
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,529
I take a shot everytime someone asks a question about a good black bear gun and someone says the word "grizzly". I get schnockered every time.

EDIT:
now that I have glanced over the last few and first few posts of this thread...

1. ok I understand what you are getting at now, you wanted to keep within the realm of standard deer hunting calibers but not really for the use of deer hunting per say.

2. there is an edit post function here, a simple edit could have instantly steered this boat back on path.

3. there are several terms that many of us use that define the use of a rifle. a sniper rifle normally isn't used on deer nor is a deer rifle used by the military to remove enemy targets from long range. "deer caliber" implies a round that is going to be used for DEER, not paper, not steel, but a herbivorous, quadroped. I now understand what you are after but your terminology is the reason this thread keeps rounding the same corner.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.

Last edited by tahunua001; February 6, 2014 at 02:25 PM.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 02:39 PM   #61
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,759
I think the OP got around to saying, "What common hunting caliber could I use for accurate target shooting out to 1000 yards?" eventually. And then he got around to saying we wanted something between 243 and 308 for recoil management.

Still, caliber doesn't matter. Between 243 Win, 260 Rem, 7mm-08 Rem, and 308 Win, all of them with appropriate bullets and powders will be competitive at 1000 yards.

115gr DTAC in 243
140gr BTHP in 260
162gr BTHP in 7mm
155 or 175 gr BTHPs in 308.

Really the question comes down to, "Do you handload?" because if you don't, then the 308 Win has the most commercial long distance loads available, with the 260 Rem a distant second.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 04:30 PM   #62
Panfisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 718
IMHO it is immoral, unethical and possibly fattening to shoot at deer at 1000 yards.

That and the fact that I like the mental picture of Brian banging his head on his keyboard when he reads the first part.
Panfisher is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 04:42 PM   #63
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
I hate you.





__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 06:45 PM   #64
rdavidsonjr
Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2014
Posts: 76
POST FROM H---

I am the original poster. I am certainly glad these keyboards are'nt long range rifles, however listening to all the doubtful skills at long range maybe nothing to be concerned about. I've never seen a title that told the whole story however I guess it would be a short story. Titles are only clues to the underlying details. You have to look at the preface or descriptive post to get the definitive statement about what things are about in books, articles, and even posts. I guess apologies don't count either so I ' ll start preparing for my crusifiction. There has been a lot of intelligent discussions inspite of people's diminishing reading skills once they read a title. I HAVE REPOSTED THE ORIGINAL TITLE and since its even more vague you will have to read the description to get the whole idea. Again thanks for the intelligent debate it has been both interesting and humorous.

Last edited by rdavidsonjr; February 6, 2014 at 07:06 PM.
rdavidsonjr is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 07:06 PM   #65
rdavidsonjr
Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2014
Posts: 76
fYI I can' t change the original thread title only the post!
rdavidsonjr is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 09:18 PM   #66
4runnerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnsota
Posts: 2,887
rdavidsonjr- Go with the 308. More than good enough for 1000 yard paper punching and more than good enough for 400 yard deer shots. Easy to load for,lots of info out there, will shoot bullets from 150 gn to 200 gn with accuracy.
Not sure why this thread got so blown out of whack here. You can have both rifles in one, regardless of what some might tell you here. You will need 2 different loads. One for hunting and one for long range shooting. Don't see much issue with that one. Darn cheap old savage Axis will work just fine. Boyds stock,trigger polishing job and your ready to go.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO
NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional
4runnerman is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 09:37 PM   #67
JD0x0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2013
Posts: 1,030
I'll give my two recommendations. (I think I may have given one of these already)
Ruger American Rifle in .308 or .270 Winchester, if you're on a tight budget. It likely wont win any competitions, but I'm sure it could hold it's own, unless you get a lemon.
Weatherby Vanguard with sub-MOA accuracy guarantee, in the caliber of your choosing. Should still be under $1000 and you're guaranteed sub-MOA groups with 'Weatherby or premium factory ammunition' which means if you hand load it's likely possible to get your groups even tighter.
JD0x0 is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 10:28 PM   #68
rdavidsonjr
Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2014
Posts: 76
Thank you JDOxO and 4runnerman sounds like you both may have been talking to my son. I'm kind of waiting a little longer to post my summation along with some interesting analyses from a Marine that lives and breaths this stuff. I may post it here and the thread on why a "308 Winchester why so popular for long range".
rdavidsonjr is offline  
Old February 7, 2014, 10:19 PM   #69
rdavidsonjr
Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2014
Posts: 76
Well thanks to many for an interesting enlightening and somewhat satirically humorous post.After all is said I found that apparently several believe in the 243 and it is a very accurate round. It can be successful as a deer round but I feel it can suffer at 300-400 yards in effective knockdown power. Not saying it won't just not my top choice. That leaves the 260, 6.5 rounds and the 308 at the top of the picks with others some of which I already own listed such as the 25-06 which I think is the sweetest gun I own and the 270 and 7 m m- 08 which I don't but wish I did. In the debate on this and the discussion with my son in the Marine Corp I have learned a lot.Bart has in several post pointed out a lot of very valid points for the 308 .Black Ops had very good suggestion s and input on the Remington 700 and picks that lined up in relations to the post on 243, 260, and 308. Markco also had similar input and good ideas about the Rem. 700 and agreed on the replacing the stock. 4runnerman had much the same ideas I did when this started Brian Pfleuger I appreciate your experienced and honest input and overall trying to help referee and clarify.I agree very strongly that I will be the weak link no matter what gun I select. I also want to say thanks to Markco for reading the entire post and the input on the 260. JDXoX I appreciate your good input on the 260 and the vanguad sounds like a possible good plan. Natman thanks for the info on the 260,6.5 and scopes it is helpful
rdavidsonjr is offline  
Old February 7, 2014, 11:42 PM   #70
rdavidsonjr
Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2014
Posts: 76
When I set out on this post I thought maybe there would be data to support that the lighter and faster flat shooting deer rounds below the 308 would prevail. Well not so easy . Most of the rounds are very good with today's technology but no clear knockout punch. The 6.5 or 260 rounds seem to be the top contenders to compete with the 308. There has been a growing number of available selections in bullets which starts to even the playing field and though far behind the 308 there is a growing amount of info to learn the 6.5 . There is competition proof that this is a serious contender. The 308 has the advantage in economical components and guns which is big when it comes to the cost of practicing and initial build resources. The 308 has the advantage in learning and research material.The flatter shooting calibers serve a purpose in closer ranges because it requires no hold over adjustment to hit the kill zone for deer hunting. The recommendation by my son is the 308 due to a lot of factors. 1 training and loading info to shoot the 308 is overly abundant. 2 Match bulk rounds of 308 are relatively inexpensive when compared to others in a wider variety. The mass of the 308 will tend to fight off elements such as wind, heat and different environmental pressures than smaller and lighter calibers with more consistent results. The 308 is well matched in barrel length, twist, maximum effective range, bullet weight and loading info because of such a massive amount of testing for so long. I am going to make a guess on the 30-06. It used to be the snipers choice before the 308. Its best range is not 1000 but slightly further due to bullet speed and barrel twist match. Also the extra kick and chamber pressures to generate extra speed make it a little less predictable along with a cartridge that is close to great but can sometimes produce inconsistencies. The average shooter will never know the difference except recoil. If flat shooting fast rounds were the ticket for long range the government would probably have perfected a magnum caliber between 25 an 28 caliber. There was as time when the White House sniper team did used 7mm mag as its urban sniper round but not any more. Each gun has an effective range and it becomes more consistent in the last half of that range. There is a lot of science behind the fact that mass helps with accuracy in the last half and is quicker to stabilize. Any one that has used a bow and played with arrow weight has seen the same thing. Light arrows fly flat but tend to wobble longer making grouping less consistent and penetration less. Heavier arrows tend to straighten into a good spiral quicker while slower and dropping faster are more likely to group tighter. Also the heavier arrow will have a great deal more penetration. Another thing that come in this post was the accuracy of a shelf gun. While I don't have personal knowledge my son took his savage md 110 7 mm mag to the range.His Master Chief was in for a visit and wanted everyone to bring their favorite personal fire arm. This gun had nothing done to it and was still in its original plastic stock. They used hand loads but nothing specifically over tested for this gun. At 1000 yards in the prone position he shot 200 rounds in 5 shot groups. The tightest was 12.5". The average was 14". The largest with the one flier included out of 200 was 17". I think that proves that you can get a reasonably accurate gun across the counter. His thoughts are that he can teach the slowest trainee to grasp the shooting info on a 308. He said there is agreat deal of proof to the dependability of the 308. He said the 6.5 x 284 has a great deal to say for itself it just doesn't have the advantages of a 308 for learning long range shooting. His recommendations on economical long range gun was to buy a Remington 700 varmint which is the same as the Vietnam war sniper gun M40 with a different stock. Add a Mc Millan stock. DO your trigger work. His second choice was the Savage 110. If you want to up grade a little re -barrel to the same as the M40 3A and on the threaded barrel add a barrel tuner of your choice. Now the reason behind the question was to generate healthy debate and ideas. My son is getting out of the Corp at the end of the year and will start gun smith school a while after that. I will probably provide him with a project for school to build. Eventually he will get the gun any way. I wan't be carrying it on mountain hunting trips or shooting animals at 1000 yards. I will enjoy it simply as a long range bench gun with my son. When hunting season rolls around I may set on a pipeline and take shots out to 300-400 yards on deer , hogs , or coyotes just for the fun of it.

Last edited by rdavidsonjr; February 8, 2014 at 10:05 AM.
rdavidsonjr is offline  
Old February 7, 2014, 11:44 PM   #71
rdavidsonjr
Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2014
Posts: 76
I will do some further looking at the 6.5 before my final selection.
and thanks to all.

Last edited by rdavidsonjr; February 7, 2014 at 11:52 PM.
rdavidsonjr is offline  
Old February 8, 2014, 09:22 AM   #72
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,759
rdavidsonjr, paragraphs are your friend.

Quote:
My son in the Marine Corp said that the 6.5 is more accurate than the M16 5.56. The only reason it has not been replaced is the cost of research to supply the huge needs and materials to train the Corp to most effectively use them.Also there is already a huge investment in arms and ammo already on hand. to do a complete change out would be at a huge cost in replacement and training. All Marines must qualify on the M16 5.56 at 100,200,300,500 yards. It has been found that 90 % score better at 500 than any other range. Why? Reason: The bullet is not totally stable and in a perfect spiral till after 300 yards.
The "reason" given is bogus. Bullets are never "perfectly stable" at any point in flight as all bullets experience yaw, precession, nutation, etc, that gives them "wobble" along the flight path. Initial instability is vastly reduced by the time a bullet passes 100 yards.

The real reason Marines shoot better at 500 is that the 500 yard portion of the USMC is the ONLY prone portion of the qualification course. The shooters shoot better from the prone position, not the rifle. http://www.usmcweapons.com/the-m16a2...cation-course/

Secondly, the 5.56 cartridge is perfectly capable of superb accuracy and you can't compare a rack grade gun designed for war with a custom made rifle designed for accuracy.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Jimro; February 8, 2014 at 09:43 AM.
Jimro is offline  
Old February 8, 2014, 09:53 AM   #73
rdavidsonjr
Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2014
Posts: 76
Thanks for your correction Jimro. I will continue my research to understand some of the factors here. I m certainly no expert. It seems strange that different caliber anomalies crop up but there are no clear explanations.
rdavidsonjr is offline  
Old February 8, 2014, 10:01 AM   #74
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Quote:
Why? Reason: The bullet is not totally stable and in a perfect spiral till after 300 yards. Also the round is in the slight climb, level and slight fall between 100-300. The point of impact is more predictable after stabilization in the latter part of its range. The flatter shooting calibers serve a purpose in closer ranges because it requires no hold over adjustment to hit the kill zone for deer hunting. The recommendation by my son is the 308 due to a lot of factors. 1 training and loading info to shoot the 308 is overly abundant. 2 Match bulk rounds of 308 are relatively inexpensive when compared to others in a wider variety. The mass of the 308 will tend to fight off elements such as wind, heat and different environmental pressures than smaller and lighter calibers with more consistent results. The 308 is well matched in barrel length, twist, maximum effective range, bullet weight and loading info because of such a massive amount of testing for so long. I am going to make a guess on the 30-06. It used to be the snipers choice before the 308. Its best range is not 1000 but slightly further due to bullet speed and barrel twist match. Also the extra kick and chamber pressures to generate extra speed make it a little less predictable along with a cartridge that is close to great but can sometimes produce inconsistencies.
I truly mean no offense to your son but this kind of "information" is why we shouldn't expect someone to be a firearms or ballistics expert just because they're in the military.

1)Every bullet from every gun ever fired is DROPPING from the nanosecond that it leaves the barrel. There is no "rise". The only reason a bullet goes "up" is because the barrel is angled up when it's fired. That makes the bullet rise above the AIM POINT but it NEVER rises above the plane of the barrel. Bullets do not "rise". The principle is not caliber or cartridge specific. It is gravity and physics specific.

2)The "mass of the ,308" is irrelevant to it's flight characteristics except as they relate to one single number... the Ballistic Coefficient, BC. A bullet with a higher BC slows down less over time and drifts less in the wind. It make *ZERO* difference if that bullet is a .308 caliber or .264 or .243 or .177 for that matter. The one with the highest BC number will slow less and drift less.

3)The issue of stability is a very minor question. The ONLY difference in stability (all else being equal) between various bullets is in how they are effected by muzzle blast. Flat based bullets spend very, very slightly less time in the blast and the base of the bullet is flat, tending to get a straight push from the blast, whereas boattail bullets have the tail, which "dwells" in the blast for microseconds longer and can tend to slightly tilt the bullet because it's not perpendicular to the blast. The flat base bullet may be more "stable" for the first 300 yards or so because it doesn't need any time for it's spin to stabilize any wobble. Beyond about 300 yards, the boattail's superior ballistic properties take over and they are usually superior beyond that range.

4)I don't know what "training info" is as it relates directly to the .308 but whatever it is will apply just as directly to any rifle.

5)Load data is widely available for any mainstream cartridge and easily found for most any cartridge for which you can get a gun chambered. If you know enough to pick "Cartridge X", you'll know enough to find (or make) the data. Any main stream cartridge has MOUNTAINS of data available.

6)The availability of components is a non-issue. Fact is, sometimes it's better to have a LESS popular choice because those components are still there when all the .308 stuff is gone. Sometimes.

7)I don't know what being "well matched in barrel length, twist, maximum effective range, bullet weight and loading info..." means. Barrel length effects velocity, only very slightly, and nothing else. It's NOT an accuracy issue. Barrel twist rate dictates the range of bullet weights that will work in your gun. There's nothing magical about it. Factory guns in any cartridge will have twist rates designed for the most typical bullet weights in that cartridge. Custom guns, well, you choose your twist rate, so it is what you want. "Maximum effective range" is irrelevant, since the specific discussion is limited to 1,000 yards and any/all the mentioned choices are good to 1,000, many of them better suited than the .308. Bullet weight, as I said, is irrelevant. BC matters, not weight. These cartridges are ALL plenty enough for deer at any range you can hit one. A heavier bullet doesn't make a .308 better if the lighter bullet in a 6.5mm has better ballistics.

I don't want to start this argument again but just watch this video and think of shooting a deer. Ask yourself what cartridge wouldn't do it at any range.

I know I sound like a jerk but, unless there's something lost in translation between he and you, your son has a lot of opinion and not much fact.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; February 8, 2014 at 10:21 AM. Reason: "over" time
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 8, 2014, 10:11 AM   #75
rdavidsonjr
Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2014
Posts: 76
Also Bart B has pointed out my error in another post and did so with a suggestion that explains probably the most logical explanation for some the question I and my son have debated. All I'm after is the most accurate data from the wisdom of experience and OJTor real.life experience.
rdavidsonjr is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14807 seconds with 9 queries