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Old February 2, 2014, 09:48 AM   #26
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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I wouldn't shoot any of them anymore without a brake on the. My 300WM has no recoil, but is loud as heck..

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Old February 2, 2014, 10:11 AM   #27
Bart B.
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CDJ, hold that rifle at arms length with both hands so it's at 90 degrees to your arms. Shoot it and watch it recoil before and after the bullet leaves.
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Old February 2, 2014, 01:59 PM   #28
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What I am about to say may be less valid today due to improvements in premium bullets

Several years ago,maybe even 20 yrs ago,The American Rifleman ran an article on just this topic.

They tested a bunch of bullets with a variety of media in .308,30-06,and .300 Magnum.

The conclusion:A .30 cal game bullet is a .30 cal game bullet,regardless of cartridge.

A .308 will kill exactly the same class of game animal as a 300 magnum.

The .300 magnum advantage is longer effective range.

Manufacturers of bullets have some challenges to overcome.The bullet has to expand and perform at longer range,yet hold together and not fail at close range/high velocity.

At close range,such as a bear encounter,the article's conclusion was a .308 gave more penetration and more reliable bullet performance than the .300 mag.

The good bullet performance range for most bullets,something 2000 fps plus will make the bullet work,and,as you get above 2700-2800 things get more iffy.

If you start a 180 gr 30-06 at 2700 fps,someplace around 400 yds the velocity will be around 2000 + fps

And at around 2300 fps,at 100 yds a 30-40 Krag will kill anything a 300 Mag will kill.

As I said,with modern premium bullets,this may be slightly off,but it is generally true.
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Old February 2, 2014, 02:04 PM   #29
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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Bart trust me, I cannot shoot a .308 anymore. This .300 win mag does not recoil. After back and shoulder surgery I had this custom built for me for that reason. The brake is effective enough to almost pull the rifle away. My gunsmiths 11 year old daughter shoots this regularly, and that is with a 220gr. SMK with 76.3 grains of H1000 behind it. It is the Mk248 Mod 1 mentioned earlier(really hot load).

Now if you believe me or not, I could care less, I know my rifle. I know the loads it shoots. No offense but any of my 5.56 AR's recoil more. It is a 14lb setup and has reach out to 1760 with my gunsmith shooting an old car hood.
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Old February 2, 2014, 02:06 PM   #30
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My own experience is this: I have carried a 300 Win Mag alot of years and killed many big game critters. Before that, I carried a 30-06 and killed many big game critters. I did not see a bit of difference and my furthest shot was on a black bear at 300 yards. Now I am carrying a 308. It shoots like butter and carries nice. I dont see any difference at 300 yards and in with all of them. I have not had to shoot past that so its hard to say if it makes a difference out at 500 yards with actual smack down impact. Put the bullet in the proper place and it shouldn't matter.
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Old February 2, 2014, 02:14 PM   #31
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All I know is that any "Magnum" cartridge will make up for a marginal shot... Whereas the 30-06 in this example would not.



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Old February 2, 2014, 02:22 PM   #32
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Kimber84, I use to think that but I had made a stupid shot on a big buck at only 30 yards as he was running. I hit him dead center paunch with my 300 Win Mag when I first started carrying it. I bought into the idea that a big Magnum will drop them with a crappy shot. Boy was I suprised when we tracked that deer 1/2 mile over the toughest terain for a hour. I still had to put a finishing shot to kill him. Luckily we had 10" of fresh snow. He bled ALOT and as the minutes of tracking him ticked down, my idea of the killing power of the big magnum on a gut shot went out the door. I have seen guys hit deer in the guts with a 308 SST and drop em cold so its not a shot I would take with any caliber. Your results my vary.
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Old February 2, 2014, 03:03 PM   #33
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Yes, it will. All other things being equal, energy kills. The extreme of the same question would be "does the .30-378 WBY. kill better than a .300 Blackout?".
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Old February 2, 2014, 03:17 PM   #34
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I would think, as long as the bullet holds together, hitting at a faster velocity will cause more significant hydrostatic shock and likely more internal devastation. In the case where a bullet may not hold together, the .300 win mag could be loaded down, or be used with a heavier bullet, which should, at the very least, offer more penetration due to the higher SD bullet. 'Kill better?' I'm not sure about that, if it dies quick and humanely there's no 'better' than that. And .308 should be able to kill most anything with the right load and good bullet placement. There's always the chance that you muck up your shot, and the .300 Win Mag MAY be able to help you there, IF you get lucky. But it's no excuse to take 'bad' or 'lazy' shots. The power of the .300 win mag will obviously not save you 100% of the time with your bad shots, and then there's the fact that .300 win mag recoils more, and is typically harder to shoot, which could increase your chances of making a bad shot, potentially. To imply that the .300 win mag doesn't do more damage than a .308 is plain silly. The difference is, do you really 'need' it, and is it worth the extra recoil? Most hunter don't want to ruin their meat. So 'extra' damage is usually not needed and also not preferred. The fact that the .300 win mag will usually do more 'meat damage' and ruin more meat, is an example of how the .300WM is more powerful, but doesn't necessarily 'kill better.'
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Old February 2, 2014, 03:23 PM   #35
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Someone once asked what the difference was between four identical 30 caliber hunting bullets entering game at the same entry axis and impace velocity, but each one fired from different cartridges ranging from a.300 Savage to a .300 Weatherby Magnum.

Best answer I saw was the one that said they each produce identical effect on that animal. They're all equal.
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Old February 2, 2014, 03:43 PM   #36
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Quote:
Best answer I saw was the one that said they each produce identical effect on that animal. They're all equal.
As they should be. If they all have the same impact velocity as you stated in your post, hitting at the same axis, then yes, they should all perform the same, because the bullet isn't conscious of knowing which cartridge it was fired from. The difference is, if you loaded all those cartridges to their maximum potential, with the same bullets, and fired them at game all at the same range, they wouldn't be hitting with the same impact velocity.
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Old February 2, 2014, 09:02 PM   #37
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A .30-378 WBY would have about the same velocity at 1100 yards as the .300 blackout would have at the muzzle. I guess if you shot an elk at point blank range with the blackout and 1100 yards with the WBY; you would get the same results.
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Old February 2, 2014, 10:46 PM   #38
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Read into the Mk248 Mod1 300WM cartridge. It falls short of the .338LM, but close enough that our government wouldn't switch the system out at a higher price, they just converted the .308 over to the 300WM. The Mk248 Mod1 is one heck of a round. I had just under a case, they would amaze you at the accuracy and velocity at 800+ yards.
There is a difference in shooting people at 1000 yards and game. At 1000 yards the AK will not even come close to you if you miss and they shoot back or as long as you wound the individual you have done your job, time does the rest.

Most of us not only do not take, but are not capable of 1000 yard shots.

I have no qualm at all with the military selecting that cartridge that they believe suits their needs best (probably a rare case that it in fact is true because there is no big procurement bucks in the decision it was a correct one).

However, basing a hunting decision based on an anti personal round choice that is of no relevance to the game shooting decision (IMNSHO)
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Old February 3, 2014, 12:45 AM   #39
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Bart your point is well made & is dead on. When Mass x weight x speed x equal physical properties are equal so is energy. But HiBC did a good job making the point I tried to earlier. His reference to the American Rifleman is something I have seen many times. Each of the guns discussed have different ballistics. Therefore at each varying range speed and drop are different. Granted the original post was up to 300 yards and really I Don t think there is enough appreciable difference in these guns to make a noticeable difference. But after 300 I believe due to the magnum chamber pressures you can generate if you want to you will surpass the other 30 calibers with the 300 mag. I believe that over the 0-600 yard range on large game with a good bullet has an edge. I also believe that the same 300 mag can get worse performance with a light core lock that is screaming at closer ranges.

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Old February 3, 2014, 10:42 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD0x0
As they should be. If they all have the same impact velocity as you stated in your post, hitting at the same axis, then yes, they should all perform the same, because the bullet isn't conscious of knowing which cartridge it was fired from. The difference is, if you loaded all those cartridges to their maximum potential, with the same bullets, and fired them at game all at the same range, they wouldn't be hitting with the same impact velocity.
Even so, under any ordinary circumstance, the effect would still be identical. With the caveat that the impact velocity is within the range that the bullet requires to perform it's job. If it's not, that's a separate question/problem. If it is, the difference will be how much energy the tree on the other side absorbs.
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Old February 3, 2014, 11:37 AM   #41
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I wasn't biasing it because of anti personnel round, I was showing that the 309WM reaches velocities and energy transfers a lot closer to a .338LM with the proper ammo. I have shot this rifle at well over 1400 yards, my gunsmith hit a mile with it. I would never take a shot a game at a range beyond 400 yards with ANY rifle. Humans are a different story, we are fragile and weak. A man struck at 1000 yards with Mk248 Mod1 is like shooting them at <10 meters with a 9 mm.

I was just pointing out that even the "old antiquated belted cartridge" can resurrected with a proper twist, load and projectile.
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Old February 3, 2014, 11:58 AM   #42
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Shot a cow elk at 340 yards last fall with a 150 gr 270 Win. Right in the boiler plate. Sucker dropped, then rolled down the hill landing in a creek.

Bullet went in, destroyed the lungs and exited.

If I would have use a '06, 150 gr bullet, and put it in the same spot, pass through and it would have dropped and rolled down the hill into a creek.

If I used a 300 WM, using a 150 gr bullet, put it in the same spot, it would have passed through, the critter would have dropped, rolled down hill and landed in the creek.

Which of the three bullets is the most deadly? (at 340 yards hitting the boiler plate, going through and destroying the lungs). Maybe it wouldn't have rolled into the creek though, no way of knowing. But it wasn't really that big of a creek.

The real difference is the rifle shooting the bullets. My 270 is a Winchester Featherweight. I was hunting in the mountains at 9500 ft, which didn't help my COPD. Plus do to the recoil I can shoot it better.

I have a 300 WM, and several '06s, there is no doubt if I'd been packing those rifles in the Big Horns, at the same time and same place, I would have been worn out, it would have taken me more time to catch my breath so I could shoot, and then I'm not sure I could have put the bullet in the same place.

Maybe some of you young folks don't mind carrying a 10 lb rifle in the mountains, but not me.

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Old February 3, 2014, 01:08 PM   #43
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There's a utoob video of a doe getting absolutely dropped by a 300WinMag taken in the chest, quartering towards the hunter. There's another utoob video of a doe taking a 300WinMag (perhaps a 300WSM) broadside in the ribs and it runs out of the frame of the camera and then turns around and runs back into the frame and out again. I always suspected the bullet for that second video had a bullet that failed to expand.
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Old February 3, 2014, 02:29 PM   #44
Bart B.
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Quote:
A much more useful cartridge is the 280 Improved which almost matches the velocities of 7mm MAG.
Not with the same barrel dimensions and peak pressure.
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Old February 3, 2014, 02:58 PM   #45
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There's a utoob video of a doe getting absolutely dropped by a 300WinMag taken in the chest, quartering towards the hunter. There's another utoob video of a doe taking a 300WinMag (perhaps a 300WSM) broadside in the ribs and it runs out of the frame of the camera and then turns around and runs back into the frame and out again. I always suspected the bullet for that second video had a bullet that failed to expand.
Nah, it's just two bullets that didn't hit the same animal with the same energy at the same angle and in the same spot. Killing things is not that reliable. I've seen deer get hit with a 7mm-08 handgun firing a 110gr bullet at 2,800 fps and they drop where they stand while another get's hit with a 300gr 45 cal bullet at 2,300fps that blows a softball side hole in the other side of the animal but the thing runs 75 yards.

That's why I ALWAYS laugh when I see "Every deer I've ever shot..." statements. The only thing every deer somebody ever shot did was something different than every other deer they shot.
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Old February 3, 2014, 03:35 PM   #46
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Ahhhh, mid winter ballistic threads...

Out to 500 yards I do not think there is a meaningful difference in the ability of the 3006 and the various fast 30's to kill game. One could add the 7mmrm, the 280, the 308, and a raft of others to the list.

The difference in ballistics with most modern bottleneck cartridges out to 500 yards is not worth talking about.

While dead is dead I have noticed a tendency for the faster cartridges to bloodshot meat more - think fast 30's, 7mrm, 264wm, etc.

If it were me I would take 3006 over the fast 30's and then a 338wm over a375h&h.
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Old February 3, 2014, 05:43 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger
The only thing every deer somebody ever shot did was something different than every other deer they shot.
Lol well said.

Though CNS shots usually lead to DRT i've never seen one take a good shot to the brain or spinal cord and run.
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Old February 8, 2014, 12:51 PM   #48
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Well, let me just repeat what has undoubtedly been already said...the .300WinMag is better than the .30-06 or the .308 for power and trajectory at longer range. And that is likely about all.
I own a .308 (Ruger American) and a .300WinMag (Savage 111 Hunter). I find the recoil not too much different, but that's likely because the Savage weighs more than the Ruger. And neither hurt my shoulder. My 12ga does, after a 100 rounds or so LOL (Remington 870)
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Old February 8, 2014, 03:26 PM   #49
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I have lost track of how many 30-06 and 300Win Mag rifles I own, and I have never killed anything with either.

But I have killed a lot of ruminants with 257R, 270, and 7mmRemMag.

None of them ever seem to know what they were killed with.
But they sure react differently based on where they were hit.
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