The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > The Smithy

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 30, 2014, 05:21 PM   #1
7mag
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2009
Posts: 8
k.kale turk mauser in 338 mag??

Hello everyone. First off, im a big fan of magnum calibers an sporter mausers. Now I will never take a original an sporterize it. That being said,

I have a 1940's k.kale turk mauser. That somone else already sporterized. I got it really cheap. Its still in the 8 mm cal. I found a barrwl that will fit it thats new in 338 win mag.

my question is, is the 338 to much for the turk action? I kno its a 98 action but ive had people tell me that it wont handle magnum calibers cuz its a turk action.

any and all info woupd be greatful. Thanka
7mag is offline  
Old January 30, 2014, 05:44 PM   #2
WardenWolf
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2013
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 135
The Turkish Mauser K. Kale design is referred to as large ring, small shank. That means that the receiver is functionally identical to and just as strong as a standard K98, but the barrel shank (the part that it screws in to the receiver) is smaller. What does this effectively mean? Well, the jury's still out. Theoretically it means the connection between the barrel and receiver is weaker since there's less "meat" on it. Whether it's enough to matter, though, is a good question.

I'd say .338 might be pushing it a bit. Also note that you would have to have the bolt face and other bits permanently modified to accept the magnum caliber, whereas non-magnum conversions will typically work with little or no action modification.

That said, Turkish Mausers are good guns as they are. They can often be found both with beautiful wood and bright barrels for right around $250. There's really no reason to rebarrel them from their existing 8mm caliber; it's easy enough to get, and more than powerful enough for any game in the lower 48.
WardenWolf is offline  
Old January 30, 2014, 05:57 PM   #3
7mag
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2009
Posts: 8
Yes sir I kno id have to alter the bolt face feed ramps etc. An yes the 8mm is more then enough to hunt with.

but im just a magnum fan. All my deer guns are magnums( except for a few guns that were gifts)

if I remember right the LR/LS mauser has a thred size of 1.10 and the small shank has a thread size of .980. This would make that much of a diffrence in strength to were the 338 would be unsafe tho?

an id like to use the turk just for the reason that I already have it. But if its gonna be unsafe with the 338 then ill scrap that idea
7mag is offline  
Old January 30, 2014, 06:02 PM   #4
WardenWolf
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2013
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 135
You'd have to speak to a gunsmith. I don't know the exact specifics. I do own a beautiful K. Kale myself, but I'm leaving her as is.

E.R. Shaw specializes in barrels and gunsmithing for military actions. They will be able to tell you, without a doubt, what your rifle can handle, as well as help you choose an appropriate caliber. I recommend you call them.
WardenWolf is offline  
Old January 30, 2014, 06:52 PM   #5
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 2,786
Quote:
I found a barrel that will fit it that's new in 338 win mag.

my question is,
You have a 338 Win Mag barrel with a small shank? Yes the threads for the small ring Turk is .980 in diameter. Not a big problem but I have Turks rifles with large ring receivers and large ring shanks.

Has a small shank/large ring Turkish rifle ever been chambered to 338 Win Mag, Yes. Did they blow up blow? No.

Would I chamber a LR/SS Turkish Mauser to 338 Win Mag? NO. But I would hesitate to ream the chamber to 8mm06. I am building 2 8mm wildcat bench rest type rifles using M1917 receivers.

http://www.turkmauser.com/serialNumbers.aspx

http://www.turkmauser.com/models.aspx

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 30, 2014, 07:14 PM   #6
WardenWolf
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2013
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 135
K. Kales are purely locally-produced Mausers. Turkey had been buying Mausers from Germany up until World War II, but eventually they were forced to start producing them themselves. K. Kale Mausers are all standardized, but earlier Turkish Mausers can be any number of things. Some of them were originally 7mm Mausers modified to 8mm, and some were even small-ring cock-on-close actions rebarreled to 8mm that were barely safe to begin with. You can identify these modified actions by a crescent cut in the forward part of the receiver to accommodate loading longer round from a stripper clip.

As a general rule of thumb, if it says K. Kale, it's a good gun. If it's just a "Model 38", it could be any number of Mauser models that were merely upgraded to the same functional standard. You have to pay close attention to those to know what you're getting. Do your homework, and know what you're buying.
WardenWolf is offline  
Old January 30, 2014, 07:54 PM   #7
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 2,786
And the bolt handles has an egg shaped knob then there is the bolt, it is shorter, then there is the length of the floor plate, it is shorter.

Then there is the 54 ATF rifle. The receiver ring is shortened but the ring is large with a large shank.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old January 31, 2014, 10:25 AM   #8
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,761
I wouldn't put a 338 Magnum in any K.Kale action.

When you get the old barrel off, check the top lug recess area for a shiny vertical strip, if there is one then you have an obvious sign of "lug setback" going on and it will only get worse with cartridges that operate at higher pressures with more bolt thrust.

The way to fix that is to have a smith true the lugs and action mating surfaces, then heat treat the action and bolt.

If your action doesn't show any signs of lug setback, I'd recommend a "poor man's magnum" chambering like 338-06, 35 Whelen, or 9.3x62 Mauser. You could even go with a wildcat like the 375 Hawk Scovill.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is online now  
Old January 31, 2014, 06:40 PM   #9
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 3,170
I have not converted any K. Kales to belted magnum.
I have converted a couple 1908 Oberndorf [Brazilian] and and a couple VZ24 to belted magnum.

Today I am converting a Mosin Nagant to belted magnum.


I have converted a K Kale to 243 and shot necked down 308 brass that pinched the bullet.

I have measured the lugs on bolt actions in:
1903 Mauser
1908 Mauser
VZ24 Mauser
K.Kale Mauser
Santa Barbara commercial Mauser
Rem 700
Win M70
Savage 110
Mosin Nagant

They are all about the same cross section and the same strength. Maybe the Savage is 10% more, but that is insignificant.



I have found the limit of a standard sized strong bolt action is ~~ 107 kpsi QL with a belted magnum. At that point there is a tiny amount of plastic deformation in the bolt body behind the lugs and in the lug abutments. This can be lapped out and the gun is as good as new.
__________________
The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books."
"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
Clark is offline  
Old January 31, 2014, 06:55 PM   #10
littlephil
Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2014
Location: Coshocton, Ohio
Posts: 87
Clark,

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I'm interested in which nagant action you're using and how difficult it is to rebarrel one. I'm not really a magnum fan but I have considered building a 450 Marlin nagant, though I don't have the tooling to do it and have heard that most smiths at least frown upon doing anything of the sort to these "cheap junk " guns. Thanks in advance for any info you can give me.
littlephil is offline  
Old January 31, 2014, 09:04 PM   #11
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 3,170
Phil,
Because no extractor relief cut is needed on the breech, the rebarrelling process of Mosin Nagant to belted magnum is easier than rebarrelling to 7.62x54R, 30-30, or 45/70.

Feeding is easy for the 2.55" 450 Marlin. Just cut material from the magazine off the walls for the belt and cut some wall off for the shoulder. Then cut some receiver feed lips off for the shoulder.

Some guy shows how to do it:
http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59429
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkyi2hSOCew

What I am doing today is 3.34" 7mmRemMag and 300WinMag conversion that in addition seems to require some off the front and back of the magazine as well as flaring the receiver port.

Trying to get back on the OP's topic:
The K.Kale to 338 WM is going to require:
1) a longer magazine well.
I have milled out the military mag and I have bought the commercial bottom metal.
2) cutting the receiver feed lips [I have Walsh's drawing for this, I would have never figured it out]
3) modification to the extractor claw
4) modification to the bolt face. [not always easy to do an interrupted cut on hardened steel]
__________________
The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books."
"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
Clark is offline  
Old February 1, 2014, 01:46 AM   #12
littlephil
Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2014
Location: Coshocton, Ohio
Posts: 87
Wow, it almost sounds easier to do a belted magnum on a mosin than a Mauser. Thanks for the info, it is greatly appreciated.
littlephil is offline  
Old February 1, 2014, 02:16 PM   #13
WardenWolf
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2013
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 135
The problem with a Mosin is that it's not really safe to rechamber to a cartridge with a longer base-to-shoulder length than the stock 7.62x54R. Many years ago a company rechambered Mosins to .30-06. The end result was a very unsafe rifle as there was very little material left in the forward part of the action due to drilling out for the longer shoulder. Bone stock, they're a very strong military action, but because of their short receiver, it's a bad idea to rechamber them for a longer cartridge.
WardenWolf is offline  
Old February 1, 2014, 02:26 PM   #14
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,679
.

The 8x57 Turk is (IMHO) much better suited to the .338 Federal than for a belted magnum.

Same bolt face size, just have the existing bbl set back one thread, rethreaded & rechambered, and "maybe" block the rear of the magazine and/or make some feeding adjustments to the underside of the rails.


.
PetahW is offline  
Old February 1, 2014, 03:46 PM   #15
littlephil
Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2014
Location: Coshocton, Ohio
Posts: 87
WardenWolf,
If you're referring to the bannerman conversions, my understanding is that they used the original barrels and cut off a big portion of the chamber. This meant that the 30-06 chamber had to extend into the much thinner barrel portion. This was my understanding as to why they are so dangerous. I have actually heard of a competition sniper team (Finns I believe) who rebarreled one to 300 win mag and did quite well with it.

PetahW,
What you are suggesting about rechambering the barrel would not work unless you also had it rebored. Otherwise you would be squeezing a .338 diameter bullet through a .323 diameter bore. This is of course unless I misread your post (which I've been known to do )
littlephil is offline  
Old February 1, 2014, 03:51 PM   #16
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,679
.

Nah, you didn't misread me .........

I forgot about the rebore required - I guess I'm having another "senior day", (again ) .


.
PetahW is offline  
Old February 1, 2014, 04:19 PM   #17
7mag
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2009
Posts: 8
Ok then the way it sounds ill atay away from a mag ob the turk. I thought id do that just cuz the berrwl was cheap. Ok guys thanks for the info
7mag is offline  
Old February 1, 2014, 05:18 PM   #18
littlephil
Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2014
Location: Coshocton, Ohio
Posts: 87
PetahW,
It happens, even to me (and I'm only 23 ) Just thought I'd put that up so nobody got the wrong idea and tried something dangerous.
littlephil is offline  
Old February 1, 2014, 05:44 PM   #19
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 2,786
Quote:
Same bolt face size, just have the existing bbl set back one thread, rethreaded & chambered, and "maybe" block the rear of the magazine and/or make some feeding adjustments to the underside of the rails.
The Mauser has 12 threads to the inch, removing one thread would be .083". The difference between the length of the 338 Federal (308 W) and the 8mm57 is .225". It would seem the barrel would require setting back .249" (3 threads)to clean up the old chamber. But if the barrels is to be bored to .338".

That would leave the 8mm08 Winchester? if the barrel is to remain 8mm.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; February 1, 2014 at 05:45 PM. Reason: add .
F. Guffey is offline  
Old February 2, 2014, 10:07 AM   #20
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,761
Quote:
I found a barrwl that will fit it thats new in 338 win mag.

my question is, is the 338 to much for the turk action? I kno its a 98 action but ive had people tell me that it wont handle magnum calibers cuz its a turk action.

any and all info woupd be greatful. Thanka
You can turn a Remington 700 barrel into a "small ring Mauser" barrel by recutting the threads. This process takes away some of the steel that is directly involved in keeping the cartridge from bursting.

So I wouldn't do a belted magnum on a K.Kale Turk. They are perfectly safe for standard cargridges, or wildcats based on standard cartridges like the 8mm-06.

Logically you would think that since the K.Kale action has the same outer diameter at the ring as a standard m98 that it would be safe, you would just have more steel in the ring and less in the barrels chamber. However we know that you'll never get 100% fit between barrel and receiver, so you get into a situation where you don't know how much support you actually have.

I've done a couple K.Kales. One is a 30-06, and the other is a 9.3x62, and a third I sported but left in 8x57 as the barrel was good.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is online now  
Old February 4, 2014, 09:18 AM   #21
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 3,170
Quote:
Jimro

You can turn a Remington 700 barrel into a "small ring Mauser" barrel by recutting the threads. This process takes away some of the steel that is directly involved in keeping the cartridge from bursting.
If you try to make some barrels burst from hoop stress you will find that the thickness needs to be proportional to inside diameter. But if all cartridges were the same diameter, a rule of thumb might be "If the wall is 0.1" thick steel, you can't blow it up with brass cartridges."

Guns are very hard to blow up compared to the calculations of steel stress and chamber pressure. There must be a dynamic strength vs steady state strength phenomena.

The CZ52 pistol with 0.35" thick chamber walls will split at 60,000 psi if you find one of the RC28 hardness barrels.

But getting a 338WM to blow with 0.2" steel around it, you may find that a tedious task.
__________________
The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books."
"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
Clark is offline  
Old February 5, 2014, 09:11 PM   #22
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,761
Clark,

Metal fatigue, corrosion, etc, all take away from that safety factor. I've seen the aftermath of a 308 Win getting touched off in a 7mm Rem Mag chamber of a Mark X m98. I've seen the aftermath of Swede mausers fail from metal fatigue. So I'm not a fan of pushing the performance envelope with old rifles. I know you've tested several milsurps to failure, so you know that not all rifles will fail at the exact same point based on their metallurgy, use history, etc.

I'm not saying that it would be utter catastrophe to build a belted magnum on a K.Kale Turk action, I'm saying that it isn't something I can recommend. A lot of that is just based on my risk comfort level, which is different from yours.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is online now  
Old February 6, 2014, 01:14 AM   #23
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 3,170


Jim,
Here is a graph another engineer made for me to understand metal fatigue in bolts in bolt action rifles. The ratio of yield in steel for 1 cycle to 10,000 cycles is about the same as SAAMI ratios off the 7mm Rem Mag from max average pressure to proof loads: 1.3 to 1.4

Here is a pic of a K.Kale bolt lug next to a Rem700 belted magnum bolt lug.

I would feel safer with the K.Kale.
I have a friend that got hurt with a Rem 700 223 when the case failed.
I have not been hurt by the K.Kale when I did worse.
__________________
The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books."
"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
Clark is offline  
Old February 6, 2014, 09:20 AM   #24
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,761
Clark,

The gas handling capabilities of the m98 action make it very safe, I agree. I sure as heck try to avoid situations where those safety features are necessary.

But getting back to the K.Kale action. All milsurps come with an unknown pedigree. Could have never been fired, used solely as a ceremonial presentation rifle. Could have been used in a basic training unit where it was fired constantly for years, pausing only long enough to rebarrel. No one knows.

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13864 seconds with 10 queries