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Old January 24, 2014, 04:42 AM   #1
laea7777
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.44 Magnum -P hollow point ammunition

Does anyone know of a cartridge that meets these criteria: .44 Magnum case with a jacketed hollow point bullet, preferably with a flat polymer plug, 200 - 240 grains, downloaded to subsonic levels 1000 - 1100 fps?

I currently load my Super Redhawk 7 1/2" for home defense with Hornady's Critical Defense .44 Special - 165 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 900 fps yielding 297 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. These statistics are based on tests out of a 2 1/2" barrel, according to Hornady's website. Though I'm probably getting considerably more velocity/energy with the longer barrel, when I test fired them, I was disappointed with my accuracy. Though it could've just been me, it might also be because these are designed for a short barrel. I typically shoot much more accurately with this gun with other loads (.44 magnum reloads, usually).

My reasoning for using this gun for home defense is that I think I would get sufficient stopping power with minimal muzzle flash and bang, using a long barrel with a larger caliber, low pressure, subsonic cartridge. The loads that I'm using, at least going by the 2 1/2" statistics, are substantially less powerful than what I want, but most .44 Magnum loads are too powerful for what I want.

What I am looking for is approximately a 220 - 240 grain bullet going 1000 fps, maybe 1100 fps out of a 7 1/2" barrel, yielding between 488 - 645 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Ideally, I would want an underpowered Magnum load, as opposed to a +P Special load, to avoid losing accuracy due to the bullet having to jump farther to get to the barrel and to minimize casing pressure. In other words, I am looking for a .44 Magnum -P.

Chuck Hawks has an article suggesting a similar load (200 gr, 1000 fps) for varmint hunting, but I'm not set up for reloading and most people advise against using reloads for home defense.

I also like the Hornady Critical Defense concept of a hollow point with a flat polymer plug. It's just that their .44 Magnum is too powerful and their .44 Special is not powerful enough for what I want.

Thanks.
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Old January 24, 2014, 09:33 AM   #2
Rifleman1776
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You handload, you can do whatever you want within safety limits. I used 231 a lot in my .44 mag. for target use with small charges.
However, IMHO, you are way overthinking the issue. Accuracy concerns across a room at a man sized target is not something to even be thinking about. And low velocities might not perform as intended with hollow points. When my .44 mag. was my home defense gun I just used 180 gr. hollow points at normal (apx. factory) velocities. Recoil was reduced and I had no doubt they would do the job if I did mine. The use of soft lead bullets will work well also. For one or two rounds at low velocity you don't need to worry about leading.
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Old January 24, 2014, 09:48 AM   #3
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Yes, handloading your ammo is the answer.

If you need a factory load and want less power than factory 44 magnum ammo gives you, use 44 Specials. Accuracy is still outstanding as a rule.

Very easy.
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Old January 24, 2014, 10:54 AM   #4
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You are overthinking this. A hot 44 Special would be about perfect. Something like this

http://www.hornady.com/store/44-Special-180-gr-XTP/

1000 fps and 400 ft lbs energy from you 7.5" barrel. Accuracy should be excellent.
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Old January 24, 2014, 11:05 AM   #5
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I doubt that at SD/HD distances and under the stress of a intrusion, that the small amount of accuracy lost using .44 special ammo in a .44 mag would be moot....especially using factory ammo. If you are experiencing poor accuracy using a particular brand/type of .44 special in your .44 mag, my guess would be it's just that brand/type of ammo and how it shoots from your gun and not the extra .1'' jump to the throats. Me, I'd quit worrying about trying to find a factory loaded round in a .44mag-p configuration and just load my own.
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Old January 24, 2014, 01:39 PM   #6
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The 44 Magnum is usually not seen as the best choice as a self defense handgun so ammo intended for that purpose may be severely limited. It is particularly difficult when you make such specific requirements as you did. A polymer plug? I would imagine that might be hard to find.

Accuracy? Home defense? How big is your home? The longest shot I could possibly make inside my house would be about 40' as the main hallway runs almost the length of the structure. Other than that one spot about 15' is it. A gun would have to shoot very badly to be useless at 15 '.

My suggestion for a 44 Magnum would mirror you first thought: the 44 Special. There are several 44 Special loads available that would work fine.

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Old January 24, 2014, 02:25 PM   #7
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I rarely get any intended audience to actually "get my point" on this subject, but it's not for lack of trying. Please keep in mind that it's not (at all) technically correct or proper to name your own cartridge by adding a plus-P... or in this case, a minus-P.

Plus-p is a SAAMI-established industry term, though I can't say that minus-P is. Some folks think "plus-p" means "hey, more pressure!" and while generally that may be true, the salient point is that it's a true industry standard and something named as such follows a very strict... standard. It's not a general term, at least when used properly.

There are occasional handloaders (understandable, it's just some guy) or smaller ammunition manufacturers (inexcusable, in my opinion) who will toss out a little "plus-p" at the end of one of their products.

I say it makes sense to point out the fact that it's bad form to do this. If it's not .38 Special+P, 9mm+P or .45 Auto+P, it doesn't exist, at least to a SAAMI standard, and the SAAMI standard is the one to which all firearms and ammunition in North America subscribe.

To put it differently, if you see a box of ".380 Auto+P" on the shelf of a store, it may just as well be sitting next to a box of .357-90 Super T-Rex UltraMaG on the shelf. Meaning... neither of these "chamberings" truly exist to any set or known standard. Buyer beware.

.44 Magnum-P ? That's as accurate, useful and realistic as the .357-90 Super T-Rex Ultra-MaG. It doesn't exist... and it shouldn't exist.

This was written respectfully, and to the subject. NOT personally, as any manner of an insult.
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Old January 24, 2014, 05:19 PM   #8
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Speer has a 44 mag 'short barrel' load.
Buffalo Bore and Corbon have hot 44 special loads.
44 specials can shoot accurately from a magnum. A different 44 special load might shoot just fine out of your gun.
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Old January 24, 2014, 07:05 PM   #9
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Underwood has a hot 44 special load that may fit your need. I load a 185 grain LSWCHP with 9 grains of Titegroup. My goal is the same as yours but with a 2" barrel.
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Old January 24, 2014, 07:20 PM   #10
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For whatever its worth, I load a 240 gr. JHP with 10.0 grs. of Winchester AutoComp for right at 1200 fps.

And 8.0 grs. Winchester 231 with the same bullet for 1000 fps.

And when I can find it, use the 240 gr. Remington Semi Jacketed Hollow point. Works great!

And, in your home, who cares what ammunition you use.

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Old January 24, 2014, 07:50 PM   #11
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Old school Winchester 210 grain Magnum Silvertip is about ideal for a toned-down .44 Mag load.
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Old January 24, 2014, 10:40 PM   #12
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I checked and Speer changed the SB Gold Dot 44 Magnum load. It used to be set at 1175 FPS. It is now at 1450, which is too bad. I really liked it at 1175.
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Old January 25, 2014, 04:40 AM   #13
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I use a Corbon 44spcl 165gr 1050fps in my Super Redhawk sitting around the house. I really don't buy into this thing called "accuracy" for self defense. Don't get me wrong, I know accuracy can be a factor if needed to hit a target near cover or if the target has a hostage. But I'm talking about an ordinary and possible home invasion with a confrontation between the owner and intruder. I don't see a need for "accuracy". I mean what's the point in placing a second round through the already made hole? To me, it would be better to have some degree of inaccuracy so as to cause multiple holes in different places causing more damage to the offender.
I should add: that post #4 Hornady round- that looks pretty good as well. I'd load up with either the Corbon that I already have, or I'd buy the Hornady.

Last edited by SteelChickenShooter; January 25, 2014 at 04:51 AM.
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Old January 25, 2014, 07:09 AM   #14
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From Speer's website, but ya got scroll down on the personal protection loads. If you are concerned about using handloads, you might also be concerned about filling the hp's with silicone. The 200 grain gd is very accurate, but you will need to adjust your sights. Not sure if Hornady is offering plugged loads in 44 mag yet, seem to remember seeing them advertised in 44 special.


Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection - 44 Magnum

23971

Part Number Cartridge
Bullet Wt. Bullet Type Box Count Bullet Coefficient
23971 44 Magnum 200 GDHP-SB 20 0.145

Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
1075 994 933 513 439 387


Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards Test Barrel Length in inches Usage
25 yards
50 yards
75 yards
100 yards
0.0 -1.1 -4.5 -10.2 4-V 1


HORNADY, from their website

44 Mag 180 gr FTX® Critical Defense® See details 44 Mag 180 gr FTX® Critical Defense®
SKU: 90810 | 20/BX

44 Mag 180 gr FTX® Critical Defense®
Test Barrel (2 5/8") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 50 100
1235/610 1099/483 1007/405

Temporarily Suspended

Last edited by zeke; January 25, 2014 at 07:16 AM.
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Old January 25, 2014, 12:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Old school Winchester 210 grain Magnum Silvertip is about ideal for a toned-down .44 Mag load.
This.

Get some and test them. I think you would find them pretty good for what you want, although not meeting your exact criteria.

Can't say the velocity (and I'm not going to look it up.) but compared to factory standard 240gr ammo they feel very light when fired. Try some, and see if they don't fit your bill. At worst, you can cross them off your list.
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Old January 25, 2014, 08:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
I don't see a need for "accuracy". I mean what's the point in placing a second round through the already made hole? To me, it would be better to have some degree of inaccuracy so as to cause multiple holes in different places causing more damage to the offender.
A gunfight is a dynamic event. You will not be able to put rounds in the same place. At the same time you do not want "inaccuracy" as you may miss and hit an innocent. Some machine guns were designed with a built in inaccuracy to throw a "pattern" of bullets.
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Old January 26, 2014, 12:18 PM   #17
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I really don't buy into this thing called "accuracy" for self defense. Don't get me wrong, I know accuracy can be a factor if needed to hit a target near cover or if the target has a hostage. But I'm talking about an ordinary and possible home invasion with a confrontation between the owner and intruder. I don't see a need for "accuracy". I mean what's the point in placing a second round through the already made hole? To me, it would be better to have some degree of inaccuracy so as to cause multiple holes in different places causing more damage to the offender.
There are, essentially, two things we mean when we say accuracy. They are related, but not identical.

First is the ability of the gun, ammo and shooter to put the bullet where you are aiming.

The other thing we mean when we speak of accuracy is the ability of the gun & ammo to put its bullets in the same place. Repeat ability. Group size.

Why is this important? Because we need to hit our target. And we need to hit it where we are aiming, every time. A gun that is not "accurate" won't do this.
Quote:
I know accuracy can be a factor if needed to hit a target near cover or if the target has a hostage....
Ok, you clearly recognize that it is a factor in these situations...
Quote:
But I'm talking about an ordinary and possible home invasion with a confrontation between the owner and intruder. I don't see a need for "accuracy
Ok, its true that at very close range, accuracy isn't as much of a factor, but it is still a factor. And this is where the "group size" part of accuracy plays a part. At very short range, even a smoothbore is going to go close to where you aim it. But close may not be good enough.
Quote:
I mean what's the point in placing a second round through the already made hole?
The gun doesn't know its an "already made hole". Nor care. A gun that doesn't try to put its bullets in the same place means NONE of the bullets can be counted on to go exactly where you are aiming.

This is why we look at group size. A 4" group (at any range) means that each shot lands somewhere within 2" of where you aimed. This alone could be the difference between a shot that ends an attack and one that does not. And, of course there are many other factors at work at the same time.

At really short range, its not as important as it is at longer range, but that doesn't mean its not important. A gun (and you) that are accurate enough for long(er) ranges will be accurate enough for short range. A gun that isn't, MAY be accurate enough for short range, or it may not. Why risk it?

Example: Short range (inside the house) and you do everything right, aim center of mass, etc. but the "accuracy" of your gun/ammo turns that center of chest aim into a hit on the arm or a graze on the chest? Not nearly as good an outcome, for you....

OK, you may not need accuracy at belly to belly distances, but you don't lose anything if you have it, and may just gain a critical advantage.
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Old January 26, 2014, 12:50 PM   #18
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If you accept that humans can continue to fight for up to a minute after fatal hits to organs, you are left with this to shoot at- basically the 'stick' that holds the organism up. Both you and your handgun are going to need at least rudimentary accuracy to accomplish that.


http://smithandwessonsigma.com/shop/...&product_id=69

ALWAYS train to a higher level of performance than you might need in an emergency.
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Old January 26, 2014, 04:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by SteelChickenShooter:

I really don't buy into this thing called "accuracy" for self defense. Don't get me wrong, I know accuracy can be a factor if needed to hit a target near cover or if the target has a hostage.

The small sportsman club range I shoot at is basically a trap range with a 100yeard berm. There are large wire spools for benches every twenty yards up to it. In the winter time they plow one lane to the berm for rifle and pistol. I don't go there often but when I do I take my own shooting bench. Last time I was there, just as I was finishing up, two young guys show up. They're looking at the benches with 14 inches of snow and ice on them and then look at me. I see each one is carrying a new 100 round box of WWB .45auto, so I tell 'em if they let me have their brass, I'll stick around and they can use my bench. They move my bench up to 15 yards(I always shoot @ 40 or more) and tape up their targets. They are the printed ones with the terrorist holding a hostage. After about half a box each I jokingly tell 'em they may as well shoot her in the COM and get it over with, because with their misses on the terrorist and their unintentional hits on her she is dead anyway. They laughed and agreed and then we got to talking about it. The average civilian, even the ones that practice regularly, doesn't have the skills needed to shoot past a hostage SAFELY with a handgun and take out a moving perp holding a gun to the hostages head. Especially under the stress of the situation, and they have no business trying.
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Old February 3, 2014, 02:47 AM   #20
laea7777
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Thanks all, even those I disagree with

I am not set up to hand load; I don't have the space nor the money for the equipment at this time, nor the desire to devote the required attention at this time; maybe some day. Anyway, I tend to agree with the several different people who I've heard say that it's not wise to use hand loads for defense.

The Winchester 210 grain Silvertip mentioned, though less powerful than most .44 Magnum loads, is still supersonic.

To 'Sevens' - I was using the term -P colloquially, but I don't see why my concept couldn't be adopted and marketed as such. I disagree with your statement that it 'shouldn't exist'. I think it should exist, for reasons already stated. To reiterate: I would like a commercially available defense round that is between .44 Special and .44 Magnum in terms of muzzle energy but loaded in a .44 Magnum case to gain accuracy and reduce casing pressure (not a .44 Special +P). Also, your list of +P cartridges which have been standardized by SAAMI is incomplete; anyway, to say that one, whether it be an individual or a manufacturer, can't or shouldn't use the terms +P or -P simply to indicate more or less pressure, or that because it's not on your incomplete list of SAAMI +P's, that it doesn't and shouldn't exist is ridiculous. What I'm saying has nothing to do with lame marketing ploys, which I agree are simply that. I think there are several good reasons why your point, or lack thereof, is lost on your intended audience.

To all who say accuracy is not important in defensive situations, I think you are wrong. Very, very wrong.

To the point of .44 Magnum not being an ideal defense round - it would be, in my opinion, with this hypothetical, apparently non-existent load. I think that the Super Redhawk 7 1/2", chambered in .44, is potentially the most versatile handgun in the world. It will reliably shoot loads that could take anything from a snake or a bird (CCI snake shot) all the way up to a brown bear (Garrett Cartridges .44 Magnum +P), the largest known land predator in North America, and anything in between (my hypothetical load would be about right in the middle of that range); it's a soft-shooting .44 because of it's weight but not too unwieldy; it can even 'sort of' be concealed in a shoulder holster under a jacket, if necessary, by a person of average build (less so with the 9 1/2" version); it's very robust; it's easy to take apart or switch out parts. In short, it's my favorite gun / favorite handgun cartridge.

The reason I like the flat polymer plug is multifold: 1) it makes the hollow pointed bullet more aerodynamic; 2) it might increase the chance of expansion; 3) it reduces the exposure to lead when handling the cartridge if loading and unloading the firearm (but not firing it) frequently; 4) compared to the pointed tip (Leverevolution), I feel that it has less chance of causing the bullet to deflect at an unwanted angle upon impact.

Overthinking is better than under-thinking, in my opinion. Until Hornady or someone else with a similar idea to the Critical Defense line gets on board with my idea, I'll stick with the 165 grain .44 Special Critical Defense or check out the 200 grain .44 Special Speer Gold Dots mentioned (thanks) and hope that the longer barrel gets it up to about 1,000 or 1,100 fps and that my accuracy is good enough.

Thanks for your input.
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Old February 3, 2014, 03:25 AM   #21
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Quote:
To 'Sevens' - I was using the term -P colloquially, but I don't see why my concept couldn't be adopted and marketed as such. I disagree with your statement that it 'shouldn't exist'. I think it should exist, for reasons already stated. To reiterate: I would like a commercially available defense round that is between .44 Special and .44 Magnum in terms of muzzle energy but loaded in a .44 Magnum case to gain accuracy and reduce casing pressure (not a .44 Special +P). Also, your list of +P cartridges which have been standardized by SAAMI is incomplete; anyway, to say that one, whether it be an individual or a manufacturer, can't or shouldn't use the terms +P or -P simply to indicate more or less pressure, or that because it's not on your incomplete list of SAAMI +P's, that it doesn't and shouldn't exist is ridiculous. What I'm saying has nothing to do with lame marketing ploys, which I agree are simply that. I think there are several good reasons why your point, or lack thereof, is lost on your intended audience.
Naaa, I just seem to have trouble expressing what I mean in a way that's understood. I certainly do -not- mean (nor did I ever!) that what you are looking for, asking for, and wishing for should not exist. For sure, I actually do see fine reasons for wanting exactly what you're looking for, and MANY others do as well, and it is one of the finest benefits of handloading.

So I'll express it again in hopes that you see my intention: It's not that the product you desire shouldn't exist -- I am saying that when one big headed boutique ammo manufacturer elects to take a standardized chambering... then alter it... and THEN tack on a +P (as if that little +P is to any known standard...?), THAT method should not exist. In my opinion. It's a disservice.

What I mean is that simply giving it a name a tossing it out there steps outside the (almost universally agreed upon) guidelines. Buffalo Bore has done it in the past, IIRC, they've stamped it on some .380 Auto ammo.

But it doesn't exist, at least, in the industry as we've all pretty much agreed to accept it.

The ammo you specifically seek? Well, it has been done, and is done even right now. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't happen to be in .44 Magnum. But it exists in a litany of different "low recoil" loads in other popular chamberings. But... and here's the fun stuff: -NOBODY- stamps "-p" on it. Which is the smart move, since .38 Special-P doesn't exist as a real caliber on the SAAMI standard. Instead, they market it as what it is: .38 Special. (or whichever caliber... like the 85gr Hydra-Shock "low recoil" load in .327 Federal)

If the product you specifically are looking for were factory loaded and offered right now, it would be called a .44 Magnum product. It needn't run at full SAAMI-spec max pressure to be a .44 Magnum, it merely can't exceed that max pressure. If they make a product that exceeds that max pressure, it ceases to be a .44 Magnum and adding a little +P to it doesn't make it right.

As for what might be "missing" off the list of three "+p" cartridges I listed, I'll admit that I haven't checked with SAAMI recently. I've certainly heard arguments that one of the missing you may be referring to is a heavy .45 Colt load (commonly referred to as a Ruger/Freedom/T-C load) or perhaps the .38 Super+P, which notably isn't any higher in pressure or performance than the SAAMI standardized .38 Super already is... it's that some ammo companies have elected to stamp it on there because they are further concerned that it ends up in the (dimensionally identical) .38 Automatic platform.

I'll close with the same line I put in my earlier post.
This was written respectfully, and to the subject. NOT personally, as any manner of an insult. No matter how "RIDICULOUS" it appeared you when you read it.
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Old February 3, 2014, 12:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
Overthinking is better than under-thinking, in my opinion. Until Hornady or someone else with a similar idea to the Critical Defense line gets on board with my idea, I'll stick with the 165 grain .44 Special Critical Defense or check out the 200 grain .44 Special Speer Gold Dots mentioned (thanks) and hope that the longer barrel gets it up to about 1,000 or 1,100 fps and that my accuracy is good enough.

Sometimes "over-thinking' tho makes us concerned about problems that don't exist. Factory ammo loaded to .44 special velocities are loaded with a projectile that has good terminal performance at those velocities. Hoping to get a hundred FPS more is not going to help any at all and may in fact be detrimental to overall terminal performance as in over-penetration and pass thrus, or over-expansion and limited penetration. The reason no one has not gotten "on-board" with your thinking is because it is over-thinking. .44 Special factory loads are very good and you are not under-armed using them in your revolver just cause they aren't marked "magnum". They will do anything that needs to be done to the BG if you can do your part. Whether it is handguns for SD/HD or handguns for hunting, I see far too many folks hung up on velocity, when in part it has very, very little effect on performance when compared to accuracy and terminal performance. As for the shape/profile of those cute little plastic plugs........
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Old February 3, 2014, 04:42 PM   #23
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Quote: "I just seem to have trouble expressing what I mean in a way that's understood"

I sometimes have that same trouble. It's obvious that some replies do not have "accuracy" in the same context as I intended. We are no doubt painting different mental images and visualizing different scenarios as we compose our text.
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Old February 4, 2014, 07:54 AM   #24
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Ther difference in accuracy between combat and target shooting is time. One can create very tight groups with sufficient skill with a one minute per shot standard. It certainly demonstrates the shooter's skills in trigger control. However, a defensive shooter most often does not have the luxury of time to shoot as close to the mechanical accuracy of the gun as humanly possible. It is for this reason combat shooting emphasizes hits to the cardiac triangle, head and central nervous sustem. It includes skills in different forms of burst fire with the intention of causing enough damage to stop the attack as quickly as possible. The accuracy standard is dictated by human anatomy, the body's physical response to fighting, and the ability to hit a moving target.

I am not concerned about aerodynamics of a handgun bullet loaded for self-defense. We already know that JHP pistol bullets fly just fine to 50 yards and that 50 yards is far beyond the typical self-defense distance for handguns. Scoring hits in the cardiac triangle at 50 yards on a moving target is difficult, but the shooter may have the time for the shot. See 7677's "Sight Continuum" document for a discussion about the relationship of time, accuracy and initiative.

A 44 Magnum -P cartridge is simply a load above that of 44 Special and below that of typical 44 Magnum loads. I define this as a 240 grain bullet between 1,100 and 1,250 FPS. Speer Gold Dot SB used to be set at 1,175 FPS which provided good velocity and reasonably controllable recoil from my Ruger Alaskan. This places it in 45 Super territory. We know that a 230 grain 45 caliber bullet at 850 FPS works well for defense, as do 200 and 240 grain 44 Special bullets set for similar speeds.

All the 44 Magnum -P load does is take advantage of the lower end of 44 Magnum to create a hard hitting load that is still tuned for use against humans. It avoids damage to guns chambered in 44 Special by not exceeding the pressure limitation of 44 Special. Use 44 Magnum -P for a performance bonus to get some extra range and improve the bullet's terminal ballistics while realizing that current 44 Special loads are adequate for the typical self-defense scenario.

Last edited by tomrkba; February 4, 2014 at 08:09 AM.
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Old February 4, 2014, 11:21 AM   #25
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The reason I like the flat polymer plug is multifold: ... 3) it reduces the exposure to lead when handling the cartridge if loading and unloading the firearm (but not firing it) frequently;...
While reducing exposure to lead is a good thing, I would like to point out that solid metallic lead, as used in bullets is not soluble. It does not dissolve, break down, and pass through skin. It cannot be absorbed. The only routes into the body are inhalation, ingestion, or injection. handling lead bullets, (even barehanded) is not a serious risk. Simply wash your hands.

The polymer plug may reduce the surface area of exposed lead on the bullet, but does nothing to reduce your lead exposure. Lead exposure comes from other factors.

The .44 Mag load you are looking for does exist, and is used by handloaders all over the country, and has for a long time. What doesn't exist is a factory load at the speed you specify (sub-sonic - less than 1150fps) in .44 Mag brass.

Getting the exact load desired, when not offered in factory ammo is one reason many take up handloading. I know you are not interested, and the expense of a full setup is a factor, but bear in mind that perfectly good ammo can be loaded with cheap simple hand tools, on any small flat stable surface, and has been for well over a century.

Compared to the usual reloading setups, it is labor intensive, and your production vs time is low, but it is quite do able. If handloading is out of the question, and the factories do not make the load you want, essentially your your only option to get the desired load is take buckets of money to an ammo makers and ask them to build it for you. If you take enough buckets, and they are full enough, the ammo makers will do it.

Not practical for most of us, not being independently wealthy, or having a wealthy pool of investors, but about the only way to get what you are looking for, if you aren't going to load it yourself.

Good Luck.
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