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Old December 28, 2013, 01:48 PM   #26
Slamfire
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Cave man used spears and atlatl thrown darts. Sure it killed, but was it the best for the job? When primitive man was introduced to guns, the spears, bows, arrows, were junked for the new technology.

Gun writers are just opinioned people pontificating at a National Level. Celebrity does not make a man wiser. So what if Civil War soldiers used cap and ball pistols on each other and animals? That is not a great justification for the use of low powered weapons on deer. Gun writers have severe conflicts of interest, so their writings are sprinkled with product promotions. Maybe Nonte was looking for free ammunition, future articles, paid hunting trips from Lee Jurras.

It is not a matter of can the 9mm kill a deer, but is it the most humane round? Are there rounds that are less likely to injure and wound a living creature, which will run off and die in great pain?

The point for me is, you are inflicting pain on another creature: you are killing it. It is not a target to punch holes for the challenge of a good group.
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Old January 17, 2014, 11:50 AM   #27
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I'd rather hunt deer with an M1 carbine if I was dead set on using a barely adequate cartridge. The consensus is and I agree that the 30 carbine round is barely adequate at close range for deer and the the 9mm is even less powerful. Why make it so hard on yourself? Borrow your buddies 30-30 and have some piece of mind.
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Old January 17, 2014, 11:12 PM   #28
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At pistol range? Sure, I won't shoot just once though.

Similar to another members post, in a true survival situation I would unload a 10/22 on a moose.
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Old January 18, 2014, 04:25 AM   #29
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After the guys thump their chests enough about killing big creatures with the 9mm, perhaps we can move on to shooting deer with 32 S&W or maybe .25 auto. Where does this all end? I have to agree with the argument put forth about using the deer for ballistic media experimentation.
You are shooting a living creature and for god's sake do it humanely with enough cartridge to do it right. I shutter to think of all the wounded deer that are wandering around during the season suffering from bullet holes and dying a slow death from them. I have found carcasses from wounded animals and I'm sure a lot of other hunters have too.
We have enough poor shooters out there wounding animals, we don't need poor calibers to add to the problem......just trying to prove they can kill something with an inadequate weapon.
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Old January 18, 2014, 10:30 AM   #30
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Well I don't own a 9mm but if I had not eatan in days I would unload on that thing and pray it did not run far
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Old January 18, 2014, 11:42 AM   #31
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Quote:
So what do you think? Survival situation only? Would anyone pass up a deer shot if we were lost and hadn't eaten in a week?
If trying to survive in an area or scenario where one cannot find their way out in a week, whether the shooting of a deer outta season with a 9mm is legal or not would be of little concern. 'ell, I'd wouldn't pass up the chance to throw rocks at it or beat it to death with a stick if that's all I had. Odds are that's illegal too. Would a 9mm be my first choice to hunt deer size game? No, even where legal. But in survival situations one does not have a choice other than to try and stay alive. Anyone here saying they would not take the shot is only kidding themselves.
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Old January 18, 2014, 12:03 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slamfire
Gun writers are just opinioned people pontificating at a National Level. Celebrity does not make a man wiser. So what if Civil War soldiers used cap and ball pistols on each other and animals? That is not a great justification for the use of low powered weapons on deer. Gun writers have severe conflicts of interest, so their writings are sprinkled with product promotions. Maybe Nonte was looking for free ammunition, future articles, paid hunting trips from Lee Jurras.

I'll ask Lee about that. I doubt I will be able to repost his response.
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Old January 18, 2014, 04:36 PM   #33
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If you want to hunt, sell your 9mm and buy a hunting rifle.
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Old January 18, 2014, 07:34 PM   #34
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Interesting question. I own a 9 mm Luger Destroyer carbine. This thing is a bolt action carbine with a 20" barrel. I bought it just because it's a fun little thing to shoot and shoot it more or less regularly, but even though it would be legal to use it for hunting over here, I have discarded this idea just for the ethics thing. I would feel so bad if I didn't get a good shot, and then lost an animal I have just injured.

This said, I own a chrono that I mainly use to chrono my pistol ammo. I worked up loads starting from the 4'7 grains of Optima A I use for my pistol loads. Optima A is a medium burning rate, locally manufactured and not available in the US powder, pretty similar to CSB-1 shotgun powder if you guys are familiar with it. With up to 6 grains I got speeds in excess of 1300 ft/sec using 125 grains bullets. I didn't do the maths but that would make for a respectable amount of energy. Using slower powders like Vectan SP2 I know I would get higher velocities (well over 1400 ft7/sec), and perhaps those velocities and a Hornady XTP bullet would make a decent hunting round, but I still think I'd feel more comfortable with a proper rifle round.
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Old January 18, 2014, 07:34 PM   #35
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What can you hunt with a 9mm?

Nothing
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Old January 18, 2014, 11:25 PM   #36
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Quote:
What can you hunt with a 9mm?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing
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Read my post about the nutria hunting the cajuns in LA do with a semi-auto 9mm rifle. Perfect round for those pests.
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Old January 19, 2014, 08:26 AM   #37
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As far as I'm concerned, the nutria shooting is much like shooting an armadillo that's digging up your yard, the feral dog or cat in your garbage, etc....it's shooting a pest that no one is really concerned about. When you say "What can you HUNT"...it brings to mind the connotation of actually taking to the field in pursuit of an animal. And I can think of absolutely nothing I would pursue with a 9mm. I will even follow a wounded possum shot near my chicken coop to finish it off, rather than let it suffer. Why on earth would I pursue a game animal with a 9mm?
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Old January 19, 2014, 10:34 AM   #38
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Yes, the nutria are pests but they are also decent eating - thus they are a game animal. The relatively slow moving bullet from a 9mm is perfect for these animals. It kills them far more quickly than a .22 and with relatively little meat damage. The reason they use a 9mm instead of some other slow-moving rifle caliber is that this is the only caliber of that class easily available in a semi-auto rifle.

Here is a video of them doing it with a shotgun. Many hunters like using a rifle (or even a pistol) as more of a challenge. With a rifle, a semi-auto makes sense in this situation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyB7FsrfR40
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Old January 19, 2014, 11:09 PM   #39
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I find it quite comical that killing racoons, skunks, nutrias, armadillos, opossums, badgers, squirrels, pigeons, stray cats, and dogs is NOT hunting because the animals are pests, yet...

...grouse, waterfowl, turkeys, coyotes, javalinas, pheasants, quail, bobwhite, doves, feral pigs, bobcats, lynx, and fox are hunting because you can buy tags and permits for them...

who on earth made that little set of rules? hunting is hunting, clear and simple, it doesn't matter if you do so just to kill them or to eat them or even how far you have to travel to do it... killing a wild animal is hunting!
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Old January 20, 2014, 12:19 AM   #40
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There are a number of illogical prejudices about this stuff.

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, the nutria shooting is much like shooting an armadillo that's digging up your yard, the feral dog or cat in your garbage, etc....it's shooting a pest that no one is really concerned about. When you say "What can you HUNT"...it brings to mind the connotation of actually taking to the field in pursuit of an animal. And I can think of absolutely nothing I would pursue with a 9mm. I will even follow a wounded possum shot near my chicken coop to finish it off, rather than let it suffer. Why on earth would I pursue a game animal with a 9mm?
Over the many decades folks have gone hunting with a variety of calibers and handguns. Folks going on longer hunts with their long guns have often carried 22 caliber handguns for taking small game for meals like squirrel, raccoon, etc.

The 22, 22Magnum, 17 HMR, 32 H&R Magnum, 32-20, 38 Spl. the .357 Magnum and more have all been used to take game for the pot and from handguns. So the 9mm in a handgun or carbine can also play that role.

It doesn't occur to some that it can because it's a combat round and not a revolver round. It doesn't occur to others because they think it's underpowered for deer and their head gets stuck on that and they don't think much beyond that or game smaller than a small deer.

Some think of hunting as something done with a rifle only. Their experience is limited. In much of the world, monkey, dog, raccoon, possum, etc. are food for the table and the 9mm has taken it's share. Bush meat is what it's called in Kenya. A friend that lived there used to shoot the heads off meercats with a Luger in 9mm. Make a stew.

This is mostly all limited experience or prejudice. The 9mm will take any game the 38 Spl. will take and any the 17HMRwill take. It can do it. Don't mean it'd be my first choice. But it has done it plenty and does it daily.

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Old January 20, 2014, 10:49 PM   #41
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Is there actually people that think there is nothing that can be effectively and humanly hunted with a 9mm? Unbelievable. Guess coyote, fox, coon, etc. now wear armor.
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Old January 21, 2014, 07:45 AM   #42
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I'm pretty certain I could live off of 1 or 2 squirrels a day for quite some time. I'm not going to go a week without eating something here. Whether it is a squirrel, deer, pig, rabbit, cat, dog, raccoon, or fox if I was starving I would eat just about anything that came in front of my rifle, even if it was just a .22. With a week of hunger I would probably be too shakey to make a clean shot on a deer with a 9mm handgun.

With a 9mm carbine I could feed myself if I had to. But there are better tools for the job, it's a bit too overpowered for small game, and a bit to underpowered or big game. I'd rather be carrying my .17 HMR over the 9mm in this state. I feel like I could take a deer with it if I was starving, and anything smaller would be easy pickings. Would it be legal? No, but if I'm starving I will take what I can get.

If I was going after deer I would take a deer rifle. If I was going after small game I would take one of my rimfires. The 9mm is one of those last resort hunting options.
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Old January 21, 2014, 08:47 PM   #43
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Okay...let me state my position a little more clearly. When you say "hunt", I picture leaving the house, embarking on a mission of seeking game. I can think of no reason why I would leave the house armed only with a 9mm if I were in pursuit of game. I COULD shoot deer with a .22, though I never have, and likely never will. I value the deer as a game animal too highly to risk a wounded animal simply to satisfy me ego that I COULD kill one with a .22. I think we, as hunters, owe it to the animals we hunt to use a sufficient method of humane harvest.
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Old January 22, 2014, 09:01 AM   #44
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When you say "hunt", I picture leaving the house, embarking on a mission of seeking game.
Because you have only one game in mind - deer. The OP was asking what kind of game he COULD hunt with 9mm. Obviously deer isn't the answer. Certain smaller game, however, is quite doable with the right 9mm.
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Old January 22, 2014, 09:18 AM   #45
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Because you have only one game in mind - deer. The OP was asking what kind of game he COULD hunt with 9mm. Obviously deer isn't the answer. Certain smaller game, however, is quite doable with the right 9mm.

I think the reason deer have come up so much in this thread is because of this statement by the O.P.............




Quote:
So what do you think? Survival situation only? Would anyone pass up a deer shot if we were lost and hadn't eaten in a week?

Obviously, there is small game, varmints and pests that can be killed very well with 9mm.
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Old January 22, 2014, 07:07 PM   #46
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hunting is for rich people. pest control is for hill billies.

mention a squirrel/raccoon hunt to just about anyone and they start thinking "jed and ellie mae clampett go hunting for dinner".

Talk about fox hunt, and its rich gentry on 20,000 dollar horses and 5000 dollar suits running down little foxes.
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Old February 27, 2014, 12:14 PM   #47
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Ever legal caliber is ethical to kill a deer with. You put a 9mm through the heart of a deer it is just as dead as the one you shot with your 990ultrabigmag. It is an excepted practice to let a deer lay overnight while bow hunting to let them expire. I've seen deer go 150 yards on a double lung shot with a bow. How is that perfectly ethical but hunting with a 9mm is not?
Shot placement is absolutely everything, I would hunt with a 9mm but would limit my shots to less than 30 yards and stick to neck/head shots.
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Old March 2, 2014, 08:03 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by NCummins
I would hunt with a 9mm but would limit my shots to less than 30 yards and stick to neck/head shots.
I would shy from a head shot with a 9mm myself. I helped a friend blood-trail a deer he couldn't find several years ago. (He hit it a bit far back.) I took my Nite-Lite and hand-held spotlight and went to help him find it. When we came up on the deer, it lay bedded down watching us like nothing was wrong, about 30 yards away. I offered to let him shoot it with my S&W 686, but he told me to go ahead. I eased forward a bit, adjusted my cap so I could aim while illuminating the deer as much as possible. I aimed between his eyes and pulled the trigger. He jumped up and ran off..... I looked at my friend, dumb-struck. I have killed a rabbit with that gun at over 90 yards. We heard him crash and went to him. The bullet hit right between his eyes, a little low. It had fully cleaned out his sinuses (if deer have them), and exited the back of his head, but below the brain. A 147-grain hollow-point .357 THROUGH THE HEAD...and the deer jumps up and runs off. I would pass on a head shot at 30 yards with a 9mm.....
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Old March 2, 2014, 08:52 AM   #49
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and exited the back of his head, but below the brain.
Well, there's your problem. You shot the deer in the face. Kind of defeats the purpose of a head shot if you miss the brain.
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Old March 2, 2014, 09:33 AM   #50
Art Eatman
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Summary: Useful for the smaller critters, say coyotes on down. But not really a wise choice for such as deer, with too much chance for wounding and loss.
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