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Old January 1, 2014, 10:52 AM   #1
tobnpr
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Enfield No.4, MKI help?

Local pawn shop has this for sale, and I'd like to add an Enfield to the C&R collection...and know absolutely zip about them.

Pic attached is all I know- and it's a lousy one from their website. Asking is $300- what do I need to look for to confirm it's (a) collectible and (b) worth something close to the asking price?
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File Type: jpg enfield no. 4 mkI.jpg (131.4 KB, 166 views)
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Old January 1, 2014, 11:47 AM   #2
ChasingWhitetail91
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Not sure if it helps you, but another member referred me to this site to figure out the markings on mine.

http://home.earthlink.net/~smithkaia8/id2.html
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Old January 1, 2014, 12:11 PM   #3
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If you plan to shoot it, I would make sure you have a decent bore. $300 is the average price for one with a good bore for shooting. I have seen some with horrible bores.

First posters link would help as far as markings.
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Old January 1, 2014, 01:03 PM   #4
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Unfortunately the pic is 99.9% useless except to tell its some kind of No4. The sling is wrong, that's a U.S sling the Enfield sling is a canvass strap.

What you need to know for better advice.
Bolt, receiver & magazine numbers present & matching or not?

What exactly is stamped on the receiver ring (band surrounding the wood), or electropencilled on the flat left hand side of the receiver?

Does it have "DP" stamped anywhere on it?

How many grooves in the bore?
Does it pass headspace (0.074") NOT SAAMI?
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Old January 1, 2014, 01:48 PM   #5
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Wogpotter,
Thanks, that's the info I'm looking for (what I need to look for...)

I thought I'd read about headspace issues and neck-sizing brass only for these rifles somewhere (?)

I could buy a no-go, or perhaps some brass and add a couple of pieces of tape to the case to simulate a no-go.

Since it's a rimmed cartridge, are these potential issues related to worn lugs/raceways?
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Old January 1, 2014, 03:13 PM   #6
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headspacing for enfields is often overblown. they generally have generous chambers which led some gunsmith at some point to write about the terrible headspacing which in reality wasn't there. go, no go gauges are easy enough to come by. that pic is pretty poor but it looks like somebody painted it black? if so that is not the correct finish.
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Old January 1, 2014, 05:08 PM   #7
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I'm afraid I'm going to start a disagreement here, but so be it. Answering the questions in order.

Quote:
I thought I'd read about headspace issues and neck-sizing brass only for these rifles somewhere (?)
Yes you have, but they are (marginally at best) related only. Rimmed .303 cases headspace on the rim ONLY. Nothing in front of the rim has diddly/squat to do with head spacing, but it does have everything to do with neck sizing.

In addition to headspace there is a separate issue, namely "generous" chamber dimensions. Let me clarify. the neck & shoulder area of many No1 Mk3 rifles (SMLE's was intentionally made "loose (read sloppy)) so dirty ammunition could chamber in dirty chambers during trench warfare. Because of this "extra volume" Brass should be customized to the chamber of that rifle for longer case life.

The point being that neck sizing & headspace are two different issues & should be addressed separately.

To check headspace I suggest getting the "Coin Type" gauge from Okie Gauges. they are inexpensive, easy to use & utilize the correct dimensions (which are NOT SAAMI). Headspace is a bigger problem with a non-matching bolt, BTW. A matching one is probably fine.

Quote:
I could buy a no-go
Whatever the gauge is called it should measure an 0.074" gap. (Okie call it a FIELD) The British did not use the SAAMI GO, NO GO & Field specs they just had a min & a max.

Quote:
Since it's a rimmed cartridge, are these potential issues related to worn lugs/raceways?
Nope not a one, BUT....
The Savage made No4 Mk1* guns used a simplified bolt release & that CAN be a problem if it's chipped or worn. Check the edges of the cut in the bolt head & the actual rail it rides in. It might be, but isn't guaranteed to be a problem. If the bolt head ever jumps out, even once walk away its bad & effectively not usable. The edges of both the bolt head cut & the rail it rides in should be well defined & not chipped or rounded.

Quote:
it looks like somebody painted it black? if so that is not the correct finish.
It might be. Many Enfields were actually painted black. Many more were originally blued or (more likely from the '43 date) parkerized by Savage. Those might well have been re-painted, or painted by other owners such as South Africa where huge numbers of the Savage no4 mk1*'s were sent.

Does the rifle have a "birds footprint in a "U": anywhere on it? If it does it was once South African property.
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Old January 1, 2014, 05:28 PM   #8
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$300 is about what they go for, nowadays, and a lot more go for $400 than $300.

Look for things like cracked stock wood, rusted bore, bent or broken sight ears, missing parts.

Look for matching numbers, and do not buy anything marked "DP", which means Drill Purpose. These were shot-out curtain rods that were relegated to cadet groups.

In general, though, the No. 4 was a well-designed and built rifle, with quality metallurgy, and is still in service today.
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Old January 1, 2014, 10:05 PM   #9
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actually I was talking about the stock wog, I can't tell what the metal finish looks like from the pic, lighting is too poor.
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Old January 2, 2014, 07:13 AM   #10
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OK, somebody tell me why SAAMI specs for "headspace" in the .303 British are not "correct"?

Please?
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Old January 2, 2014, 08:15 AM   #11
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SAAMI specs were reverse engineered, based on SAAMI practice from the pre-existing .303 design specs from the 1910 with the adoption of the Mk VII ball ammo.. Those specs were "sealed" (cast in stone, not to be altered) by MOD WOPS #9 but SAAMI had to have things done to their idea of specifications.

If you look at the differences they relate to chamber dimensions & headspace with SAAMI's H/S tighter than the original British WD ones. SAAMI uses GO, NO GO & FIELD for gauging, War Office Plans & Specifications does not they just have a Min & a Max.

Its quite possible to "fail" a SAAMI spec "Field Gauge" because they do not use the 0.074" spec. While actually being in spec for the original MOD WOPS spec.
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Old January 5, 2014, 03:43 AM   #12
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Be wary of some of those which have 2-groove rifling: Savage, LB and a small fraction of those built in England.
I had a Longbranch with a very bright bore which made nasty 'keyhole' gashes at 100 yards.

This happened repeatedly using factory Prvi ammo.
The problem is that most modern ammo has these BT bullets, but even with a nice bore/rifling, possibly a worn throat or muzzle seem to cause these really bad results.

The old Russian .311 bullets sometimes found for reloading have straight sides.
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Old January 5, 2014, 08:32 AM   #13
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Thanks guys. Going to get up there this week, give it a look and take some pics and post them back here if I have any more questions.
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Old January 5, 2014, 08:52 AM   #14
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Around $300 is fair, but there are deals to be had with some digging.

Maybe this page will help you talk them down a bit? Lee Enfield No. 4 Sales Data.

Regarding the 2-groove rifling, I own a Long Branch No. 4 with a 2-groove barrel and it's among my best shooters. It was a good shooter with surplus ammo, but now that I'm reloading it it simply amazing and I feel will shoot better than my eyes.
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Old January 8, 2014, 05:10 PM   #15
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tobnpr, did you get that Enfield?
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Old January 10, 2014, 12:03 PM   #16
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The Sling

There were three or more slings in use militarily. Some were Brit and some American. The Brit sling was a very thick and robust strap with high beaded edges that gripped a brass buckle comprised of hook like claws that held to the beaded edges of the thick strap. The Brit sling was normally khaki colored but came in OD Green, white, and dark blue. There was a leather sling that was Brit intended for earlier Enfield's but sometimes issued for the Mark 4. The Americans built many of the buckle free Kerr Slings for many different arms to include many Enfield variants and even the Thompson submachine Gun. Some Kerr slings were tailored exactly for the Mark 4 and original Kerr slings can be pricey.

I have a Mark 4 and it is in original condition and I hunt with it and bench shoot it. It is a very rugged and versatile rifle and .303 will drop a Moose or a rabbit. Buy the Rifle. Buy some dies. Or buy a small Lee hand loader kit. You will be just fine with this rifle and never cut it or modify it. Never hot load your ammo as the round has enough power in normal loadings for hunting nor shooting. Clean and oil it often and give it to your Grandson to cherish when you grow old. That is what Enfield Rifles are truly for.
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Old January 10, 2014, 04:31 PM   #17
DennisCA
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Here's mine

I bought a Mk 4 No 1 a couple of years ago for about $220, so if everything is ok - prob not a bad price (not great though).

Here mine for comparison:





Not the prettiest gun but everything works just fine and it shoots - very well!

Oh yea - You'll need one of these too:

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Old January 23, 2014, 01:16 AM   #18
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DennisCA: That might be the most attractive Enfield I've ever seen.
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Old April 21, 2014, 03:53 PM   #19
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Well, it's been a few months...

Quote:
tobnpr, did you get that Enfield?
and I finally found myself over in that part of town...it was still there.
All serial numbers match (those that I could find). Forgot to take a pic of the business end of the rifle- but the crown and rifling were pristine- bore shined like a mirror.

Obviously, something's been scrubbed off the top wall of the left side of the receiver, and the sling certainly isn't original.

Since I know absolutely nothing about the Enfields- I'll let these pics, and you resident experts, edumacate me...











.
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Old April 21, 2014, 03:54 PM   #20
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three more:




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Old April 21, 2014, 04:22 PM   #21
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**edit, sorry. It was made By Savage Arms in Chicopee MA as a No4 Mk1* The lined out "flaming bomb" (U.S. Ordinance acceptance proof) & square "S" are Savage makers markings. end edit**

It went to England as part of the Lease/Lend agreement with the United States & the defaced markings on the receiver top once read "U.S. PROPERTY". It was later upgraded some time in 1951 to No4 Mk2 specs & re-labeled as a No4 Mk1/3 to denote the upgrade & rebuild. The FTR (Britspeak for total rebuild) was done at Fazakerly near Liverpool, England which is the "(F) FTR" stamp as the Brits called a full rebuild a "Factory thorough repair.

For some reason the front wood was nor replaced with the Mk2 style cross bolt, but the left side tie plate was removed, that's the "D" shaped raggedy hole just in front of the wrist. You might want to look into that as the bolt is needed to stop the rear wood getting damaged.
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Old April 21, 2014, 06:33 PM   #22
tobnpr
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Collectible still, even with the defacing of the top of the receiver (and the incorrect sling)?
If so, worth the $300 asking? (can always try to nego, anyway- it IS a pawn shop...)

Is this the missing screw?
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/486530.htm

Thanks!
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Old April 21, 2014, 06:46 PM   #23
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Quote:
It was made By Savage Arms in Chicopee MA as a No4 Mk1. That is slightly rarer then the later No4 Mk1*
If you take a closer look at the lined out ID on the body, it actually started life as a No. 4 Mk 1*. Also the fact that it is relabeled as a "No4 M1/3" identifies it as originally being a No. 4 Mk 1*. When No 4s were upgraded to No. 4 Mk 2 standards after WWII they were relabeled as follows: All No. 4 Mk1 became No. 4 Mk 1/2; All No. 4 Mk 1* became No. 4 Mk 1/3.

The "C" in the serial number is indicative of manufacture at Chicopee Falls, Mass by Savage Arms, who made close to 1,500,000 rifles for Great Britain.

The "United States Property" has been obliterated for some unknown reason, most likely by some entity that was not friendly towards the U.S.
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Old April 22, 2014, 07:27 AM   #24
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My mistake, sorry! I was looking at the bolt head release on the set of pics from DennisCA & got the 2 rifles confused.

You're right that is a No4 Mk1* converted to a MK2 equivalent.
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Old April 22, 2014, 07:33 AM   #25
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That is not the bolt you need & it won't fit the stock anyway, sorry.

The MK1's had a strap passing across the rear of the wood & riveted into both sides. When the trigger was moved to an add-on part for the Mk2 conversion (1/3 in your case) the arrangement no longer worked because the hanger for the trigger was in the same place. What was doe instead was the rear of the stock was divided, passing on both sides of the hanger & a long thin bolt was used to clamp the split rear to the hanger.

You need to replace the modified Mk1 stock with a Mk 2 stock, or cut the dovetail & use washers & bolts to duplicate the function.
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