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Old January 2, 2014, 08:51 PM   #1
James K
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What say you to this idea?

First, please no rants or threats to do nasty things to me for "surrendering" to the anti-gun gang.

We fought hard but more states have banned or restricted semi-auto rifles of the AR-15 type. We don't like it, but don't have a lot of choice especially as some of the penalties involved are draconian.

So, how about an AR-15 lookalike that has no barrel port, and is operated by a pump-gun foreend or a straight pull bolt. It has been done, but the idea has not caught on because in most of the U.S. it is still possible to buy modern semi-auto rifles. But, for those of us who have to live in states that restrict them, a manually operated AR-15 seems to me an attractive alternative.

Again, please no nasty comments or ravings about "cold dead hands" or "no compromise" or "move, you $^%$$". Just an opinion on whether enough manually operated rifles would sell to make production worthwhile.

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Old January 2, 2014, 09:04 PM   #2
Ruger480
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No can do kimosabe. Form follows function. Its not necessarily the look that made these firearms desirable.

It started with their ability to perform under adverse conditions. That's why the military adopted them. I think that the idea proposed here is trying to make function follow form. I'm not sure that would catch on very well. That's just me though.
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Old January 2, 2014, 09:05 PM   #3
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No thanks. If I'm going to run a bolt gun I would rather it be a real bolt gun not an AR knock off. Same with a pump.
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Old January 2, 2014, 09:10 PM   #4
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I think if you are looking at it from a sales standpoint there would probably be a market for it, especially among the younger crowd. There is plenty of money being made right now on AR accessories just because they look cool so there is something appealing about the look of an AR that would be legal to own in restricted states.
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Old January 2, 2014, 09:14 PM   #5
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I think someone will find a way to make a compliant "ar" or at least I hope so. Stag may be leading the way here. I think the challenge may be the various different state laws and what it will take to be compliant in all states. Certainly magazine capacity is common. Pistol grip, bayonet lug etc...I'd like to see as many features retained as possible but perhaps the most important feature for me would be modularity. The ability to change upper receivers and get different calibers, shorter barrels, heavy barrels etc is the real attraction to the ar for me. Hopefully someone is already working on it.
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Old January 2, 2014, 09:29 PM   #6
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Which states are banning them? The ban is on the sale or transfer right? there is no confiscation...

I agree with the others... there's no point if the basic fundamentals of self loading from a high cap mag is not the outcome. I'd take a bolt gun over a functionally compromised AR.
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Old January 2, 2014, 09:50 PM   #7
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At the moment there is no confiscation, but many states require registration, clearly intended as a prelude to confiscation. As it is now, no one in those states who does not own one can ever buy one, so it amounts to a ban for those folks.

If making "compliant" guns is a bad idea and totally unacceptable, then how come folks want to own semi-auto versions of the AR-15 and M14, which are nothing more than "compliant" versions of guns originally designed as full auto weapons?

Technically, there is no reason any semi-autos could not be modified to manual operation.

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Old January 2, 2014, 09:51 PM   #8
marine6680
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You could do the same thing if you just remove the gas tube, or seal it somehow. Just use the charging handle to manually cycle the action.


Most states still allow semi auto, they just limit some features.


An idea like this shouldn't be needed... but that is beyond the scope of this thread.
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Old January 2, 2014, 09:55 PM   #9
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Center fire is banned in the peoples republic of Connecticut.
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Old January 2, 2014, 10:01 PM   #10
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I don't think the pump Remington 7615 really took off. But that was a ploy for police business as a similar gun to the 870.
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Old January 3, 2014, 08:31 AM   #11
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NO,NO,NO,for so many reasons!
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Old January 3, 2014, 08:44 AM   #12
Nathan
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I think you have to look at effectiveness...in that light, a semi auto shotty with buckshot sounds a lot better to me.

To me, it is not about looking like an AR, but being as effective. Perhaps a Mossy 930 with an 18.5" barrel and matching length mag tube? Mount a Trijicon RMR and ~300 lumen light on it and I'd use it..
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Old January 3, 2014, 09:17 AM   #13
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I wouldn't have any interest whatsoever, but I'm one of those guys who'd pack up and move.

Good luck to you.
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Old January 3, 2014, 10:32 AM   #14
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Quote:
No thanks. If I'm going to run a bolt gun I would rather it be a real bolt gun not an AR knock off. Same with a pump.
I would tend to agree with this statement.

If I need to operate it manually, why not just buy a bolt gun, or a pump gun? The appeal of the AR (or AK, or SKS, etc) is in the functionality of the platform (at least to me). I could care less what it looked like. It is a pretty darn reliable weapon, with a 30 round mag, that can fire those 30 rounds as fast as I can pull the trigger.

The only reason I could see this taking off is for the people who like to mount accessories on their front rails as a range toy. For home defense, they make plenty of pump shotguns that you can hang any accessory you wanted to off it.
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Old January 3, 2014, 02:57 PM   #15
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Yes and No.
There will be customers for a pump action AR look-a-like, if they can't have the real thing.
Especially when they realize how fast a pump can shoot.
Don't know about a bolt action, though - probably not.
And there will be customers who would prefer a traditional looking pump or bolt action, figuring if they can't have the real thing, why invite a possible hassle over something that still looks like one.
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Old January 3, 2014, 03:06 PM   #16
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I'd take a straight pull bolt over a pump any day. But I own more bolt Actions than pump shotguns.
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Old January 3, 2014, 03:29 PM   #17
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It may already be made. I think James Pond (I think it was him but I could be wrong) posted a photo awhile back of a UK?-legal AR. I believe it was some kind of bolt action EBR. I don't remember if it was magazine fed or single shot but I guess if that's all you're allowed to have as a modern sporting rifle I could see getting one.
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Old January 3, 2014, 04:58 PM   #18
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The argument that no one would buy something that just "looks like", say, an AR-15, is again defeated by the semi-auto AR-15 itself, as well as the M1A, both of which just "look like" the selective fire rifles they originally were. And by the large numbers of non-firing machineguns, semi-auto BAR's, .22 StG clones, etc.

In fact, I still own, and can fire, several semi-auto "modern sporting rifles", as well as high capacity magazines, since previous ownership was grandfathered. But unless the law is changed or declared unconstitutional (both unlikely), no future generations will be able to.

Jim
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Old January 3, 2014, 05:20 PM   #19
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If I were going to buy one, I don't know if I'd buy it in 5.56.

To me, that is where the AR platforms in .243, 6.8/6.5, .308, etc. come in. Something like the 6.8 SPC/6.5 Grendel could still fit on an AR-15 frame and there are a lot of advantages of those over a standard bolt action gun. Friendlier controls, modular capability, lightweight, universal platform.

I could see something like this Grendel "counter sniper" with a bull barrel becoming more popular in that case: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ter_Sniper.JPG

or perhaps something like the BCM Mk12 or Knight Armament SR-25

Of course, when talking about featureless AR models, we often end up with something like this monstrosity: http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armsl..._stock_640.jpg

A very creative solution, if not ugly, but over time I have to wonder if we might even get very good platforms created by the need for a featureless AR.
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Old January 3, 2014, 05:43 PM   #20
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As noted earlier the 7615 from Remington was probably the best solution to the problem. If It didn't go over I can't see an AR lookalike doing any better. I could be wrong, but just don't see the market for it.

Fortunately I have no restrictions on AR ownership. If I did, I'd much prefer a pseudo- scout type bolt rifle. I have no use for forward mounted scopes, but a 5-6 lb bolt rifle with a 1-4X scope mounted conventionally and a 5-10 round DBM would be preferable to a pump action AR in my opinion.

None of the bolt rifles marketed as a scout rifle would interest me, nor any of the pump actions.
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Old January 3, 2014, 05:50 PM   #21
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Pump action AR's have been done. DPMS produced one.

The conversion is dead simple, just remove the gas tube and screw in a transfer rod going to the pump forend.

If you live in a state that requires that sort of nonsense I guess it is an option for you.

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Old January 3, 2014, 06:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
As noted earlier the 7615 from Remington was probably the best solution to the problem. If It didn't go over I can't see an AR lookalike doing any better. I could be wrong, but just don't see the market for it.
Thing is that remington was butt ugly. I still think the pump AR would be easily marketed to the tacticool crowd who lived in states that couldn't have a real AR. Don't get me wrong, I would have no use for it either but I believe there would be a market for it and as some have noted, a pump action can be fired much faster than a bolt, again appealing to some people.
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Old January 3, 2014, 08:10 PM   #23
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It is dead easy to make a pump version of the AR15, as it is with most semiauto designs.

A pump-action "AR15" receiver would be able to handle most of the accessories made for the AR, which would speak well in its favor. The exception would be the AR fore-ends... The pump version would have to use a different mounting system so the fore-end would actuate the action rails. Thus the current AR fore-ends would not work, new ones would have to be designed to work with pump-action.

Designed right, it would take any AR upper in any AR-compatible caliber. As mentioned earlier, there would have to be a plug for where the tube would normally go.

It would also be a very effective weapon. Many shooters can actually do deliberate, aimed fire quicker with a pump than with a semi-auto.

It would be slower for 'hosing' but hosing is just a good way to waste ammo in any case.

I'm not a big fan of AR's but a good idea is a good idea.

At least a pump-action AR would not have combustion gasses and crud pooting back into the rifles action with every shot fired. For this reason the pump model would run cleaner and be more far more reliable than an actual AR15.

I'd be more likely to buy a pump AR than a semiauto model, for the reasons outlined above.

Last edited by PVL; January 3, 2014 at 08:20 PM.
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Old January 3, 2014, 08:21 PM   #24
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If it was specifically designed as a pump you just don't drill the gas port in the barrel. If a conversion, you could just turn the gas block backwards if a low profile, or drill and tap the FSB for a small pipe plug. I just wonder what you would use to lock and release the slide.
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Old January 3, 2014, 08:33 PM   #25
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I think it would be fairly simple to do the straight pull bolt action AR. the nyreen rifles have the side charging handles and all it would take is removing the gas system and it would become a single shot.

now since the nyreens are all long actions they are heavy as heck but and AR15 of a similar variant would be legal.
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