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Old December 24, 2013, 10:55 PM   #26
darkgael
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NRA B16 SF target bull is 5.3"....pretty close to the six that you supposed. If you want to win....you must be shooting the nine and ten ring ...2.6".
There is something to be said, also, about the mindset/ philosophy that underlies different competitions. Bullseye shooting is, as I see it, a sporting event. Combat shooting at human silhouettes or photo posters is substantially different.....otherwise the targets would be round bulls or simple poppers.
Not better or worse....different.
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Old December 24, 2013, 11:30 PM   #27
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I rapid fire through the first magazine, do a quick magazine change and rapid fire through the second mag.
I was once asked if I would rather be in the State next to ours where type III firearms (full auto) are allowed. My answer was "no, I don't want to spend my money that fast."

A IDPA stage (18 shots w/ one mag change) will be over in 15 to 20 seconds. I enjoy shooting and like taking my time to improve accuracy. I usually spend hours at the range shooting, you will be there a matter of a few minutes at that rate or a half hour at the most.

"Real World"??? Sorry, I do not recognize the planet you are from where paper targets shoot back at you. (A dead center hit is much better than 10 near misses)

Just my view on it.
Jim
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Old December 25, 2013, 09:41 AM   #28
g.willikers
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So, where's the real controversy here?
A good shootist needs to be able to do it all.
Fast and accurate at the closer distances.
A precision shot at long distance.
With handguns, shotguns, rifles, anything and everything.
With right hand, left hand, two hands, standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, from behind cover, around corners, under obstacles, standing on one's head if need-be.
A good shootist practices everything.
Keeps things from getting boring and routine, too.
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Old December 25, 2013, 04:02 PM   #29
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So, where's the real controversy here?
Because I think it is a dangerous and irresponsible concept without SRO's around as do many indoor ranges. And I sure as hell would not want to be shooting next to someone doing so.

Jim
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Old December 25, 2013, 05:00 PM   #30
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Because I think it is a dangerous and irresponsible concept without SRO's around as do many indoor ranges. And I sure as hell would not want to be shooting next to someone doing so.
No disagreement from me (speaking as an instructor).
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Old December 25, 2013, 06:20 PM   #31
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I have my own range on my property, and I get in no hurry
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Old December 25, 2013, 08:50 PM   #32
darkgael
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skills

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o, where's the real controversy here?
A good shootist needs to be able to do it all.
Fast and accurate at the closer distances.
A precision shot at long distance.
With handguns, shotguns, rifles, anything and everything.
With right hand, left hand, two hands, standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, from behind cover, around corners, under obstacles, standing on one's head if need-be.
A good shootist practices everything.
Keeps things from getting boring and routine, too.
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That is quite an ideal. I take exception to the word "needs" (a very dangerous word in the wrong hands) and to some of those skills.....I have no need for at least the last four.
As to controversy....there is none. Just some discussion of what some shooters do at the range and why.
Pete
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Old December 25, 2013, 10:32 PM   #33
AK103K
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Quote:
So, where's the real controversy here?
A good shootist needs to be able to do it all.
Fast and accurate at the closer distances.
A precision shot at long distance.
With handguns, shotguns, rifles, anything and everything.
With right hand, left hand, two hands, standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, from behind cover, around corners, under obstacles, standing on one's head if need-be.
A good shootist practices everything.
Keeps things from getting boring and routine, too.
Perceived (however you like) controversy aside, I agree totally.

A good shooter should be able to pick up pretty much anything they might find, and be able to put it to work, and do so "reasonably" well. You dont get that from "specialization". At the very least, if you only have one gun, and carry it, you should be proficient with it, and in any way it might be possibly needed, dont you think?

Quote:
Because I think it is a dangerous and irresponsible concept without SRO's around as do many indoor ranges. And I sure as hell would not want to be shooting next to someone doing so.
Its not dangerous or irresponsible, if youre not dangerous or irresponsible.

A lot of that is perception as well too, dont you think? Who is doing the perceiving, and what are they basing what they perceive on? How do people who have never drawn a loaded gun from a holster and shot while moving, or anything else they are unfamiliar with, perceive someone who does? You dont have to answer that, I already know quite well, and heard more of my share of it. One big downfall to our sport and/or passion, is our own selves, and the divisions and animosities in our ranks. Having been a full auto/military/combat type shooter in a number of "sportsmans" clubs, its amazing we have any gun rights left, when you consider what others who dont like what you shoot, have to say about your "need" to have them, or your need to practice like that.

Most indoor (and many outdoor) ranges Ive been to have basically "lawyered up", and pretty much "everything" beyond the old hand in the pocket, one hand shooting darkgael favors, and/or anything other than bulls eye targets and more than one round every two seconds or so is verboten.

Makes you wonder where all the people who carry a gun these days, gain their experience from, and get their practice in. To me, those who carry a gun and believe that basing their gun handling skills on what they do leisurely shooting bulls eyes, and think they are prepared, is dangerous and irresponsible. How do you acquire the necessary skills, if you cant practice at least somewhat realistically?

One thing I really dont miss at all, indoor or out, are overbearing RO's, which many ranges seem to have at least a couple of (along with some of the counter guys at a lot of these places).

I understand the need for some control, but we dont need the nannys who seem to have to constantly hover over you every second and critique your every move, and try to find you breaking any possible infraction (pretty much in "pre crime" fashion), so they can freak out and impress everyone around them with their power.

Personally, I think some of them are more of a danger to the people on the range, than the shooters who some deem irresponsible.


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I take exception to the word "needs" (a very dangerous word in the wrong hands) and to some of those skills.....I have no need for at least the last four.
If not "needs", then at least "should be".

As far as the "last four" or so, are we to assume that your skill set and need only apply to your particular shooting discipline, and nothing more?

The reason I ask is, if you do carry a gun and have none of the other skills, how is that not dangerous and irresponsible?
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Old December 26, 2013, 06:39 AM   #34
darkgael
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OK

AK....
Quote:
If not "needs", then at least "should be".

As far as the "last four" or so, are we to assume that your skill set and need only apply to your particular shooting discipline, and nothing more?

The reason I ask is, if you do carry a gun and have none of the other skills, how is that not dangerous and irresponsible?
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+1 about the should be.
The rest.......fair questions. Perhaps my wording was poor....I find that what I do provides me with related skills. I have the other skill sets to a degree that I am comfortable with.
I do not claim to be an exceptional shot with pistol, rifle, or shotgun - not at all. That being said, is usually hit what I am aiming at.
I do know that, for me, what practice I do (and I shoot two or three times a week) supports a variety of skill sets.
At the range, near my home in Sweet Valley there are often men and women who are practicing combat skills. I watch them shoot. Occasionally, I will check my self and do the same type of shooting.
Maybe they all need more practice, because I shoot as well or better at those same drills as they do.
Dont get me wrong....I am not blowing my own horn....my point is that I have found that the type of shooting that I do provides me with related skills to a quite acceptable degree. From observation, I do not see that the reverse is true for other types of training. In fact, IMHO, all of those shooters would benefit greatly if they spent more time shooting at distance, slowly and at smaller targets.
Drawing, presenting, shooting rapid fire at a target three yards away does nothing to prepare me for shooting at a slow fire bullseye that is 50 yards away. Since I am more apt to be shooting at that bullseye than be in a three yard encounter, I practice for what I am most apt to be doing. I know that I can hit the three yard target quickly and successively if I need to.
None of the above is meant critically....i write this disclaimer because it is so often difficult to detect tone in internet posts.
Pete
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Old December 26, 2013, 09:13 AM   #35
AK103K
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my point is that I have found that the type of shooting that I do provides me with related skills to a quite acceptable degree. From observation, I do not see that the reverse is true for other types of training. In fact, IMHO, all of those shooters would benefit greatly if they spent more time shooting at distance, slowly and at smaller targets.
No argument there. The basics are the "base". Without those, trying to do anything else will likely give mediocre, if not poor results.

One thing great about the shooting community is, there are so many different areas within it, that you can spend your whole life wandering through and trying to learn the different disciplines (as well as driving yourself crazy and emptying your wallet. ). In all of them, those "basics" carry through, and you pretty much need that base ingrained, no matter which direction you go. Each way you go, you learn some more, and sometimes there are conflicts in older doctrine, but that too is a learning experience.
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