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Old December 24, 2013, 10:28 AM   #51
RBid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I think it does. You may be hitting your attacker, but you have missed stopping them.

Going to touch on some things that should be common knowledge at this point:

1. The overwhelming majority of handgun shootings do not result in death. It is estimated that 1 in 7 people shot with a handgun die. Note: this only speaks to the final outcome. This is NOT "1 in 7 die instantly". It is "1 in 7 die at some point as a result of the injury".

2. A hit ANYWHERE else, including high chest hits, and even hits to the heart do not result in an instant stop. Some of these may cause inability to fight within seconds, but a LOT can happen in seconds, and it is a bad idea to stop fighting to try to figure out if you got this type of hit. MOST non CNS hits take quite awhile to force a stop-- that is, to remove the attacker's ability to continue.

3. Those 0-2 hit DGUs are almost all non fatal. Those generally aren't examples of 'getting fight stopping hits'. They're examples of bad guys having the fight scared out of them.

4. When an attacker is NOT scared out of their activity, and they are shot until they can no longer continue, a defender is very likely to require multiple hits, and is unlikely to expire in less than 1 minute (or even 3 minutes).


All of this is to say that we can not plan on, or assume, that being accurate will result in an immediate incapacitation, unless we're talking about being accurate to a point where we get brain stem hits on a moving target, while we are moving, with adrenaline pumping, while fighting for our lives. If you expect that kind of accuracy, there is really no reason to continue this discussion, because that is about the same as quitting your job because you expect the lottery ticket you just bought to set you up for life.
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Old December 24, 2013, 10:41 AM   #52
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So at the IDPA match a couple of days ago:

1. A national champ managed to get a round stuck under the ejection star of his revolver.

2. A new 625 had several failures to ignite a round. Might be bad primer seating of reloads.

3. A Springfield XD something turned into a single shot pistol - gun or reloads - not determined at the time.

4. On my first stage, my 1911 jammed. Bah - cleared it and it ran like a charm for the next 100 or so rounds.

So everything mechanical can go belly up. My Glock 19 did at a big event. When I bought a SW 19 used - someone had messed with the springs and it was very light on the strike - had to be fixed. Good thing I tested it rather than put it under the pillow.
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Old December 24, 2013, 11:38 AM   #53
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WOW there is a LOT of information in the NYPD statistics. Took a while to even glance through the data, but from a quick gleaning I gathered: With a few exceptions(for grandfathered revolvers) all the NYPD issue and authorized weapons are semi-auto, in all the shootings listed no officer reported any malfunctions of their firearm most police vs. suspect shootings were less than 5 shots, dogs take less shots to stop but are harder to hit. Lots more information in the 2012 report but all the numbers and stats are running together in my mind. However the single best piece of information from the 2012 report, no police officers where killed by gunfire, some were shot and injured but none died. LEO's going home to families at the end of the shift is a good thing.

I cheated on the 2009 data and just looked for malfunctions, 6 officers reported weapons malfunctions, 3 of them were able to clear the malfunction and fire a subsequent round.

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Old December 24, 2013, 12:23 PM   #54
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RBid,

The neophyte talks of one-shot-stops, accuracy, mythical manstopper bullets, and the like. The initiated doesn't talk much, but when he does it's about about avoiding gunfights and not dying if one can't be avoided.

But cyber gun talk (platform talk for the politically correct crowd) is fun.
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Old December 24, 2013, 03:53 PM   #55
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I understand the OP wanting some statistics on different aspects of defensive gun use but I think the value of such statistics (I'll use the NYPD as an example since that's what we have) is severely degraded without knowing specifics about the people using them.

What do we know about our data? The NYPD is composed primarily of able-bodied men openly carrying SA pistols with at least some semblance of a training schedule. Those who have joined the force since 1994 will be carrying semi-automatic Glock, Sig Sauer P226, and S&W 5946 DAO pistols (date and issued guns are according to wikipedia). This makes the NYPD stats great for guys like us, who are primarily able-bodied men with some semblance of a training schedule and familiarity with semi-autos. But, they're next to useless for someone who falls outside of that norm.

My little sister for example will happily and accurately shoot a 4" .357 magnum in single or double action, but put a semi-automatic 9mm in her hands and it stovepipes every time unless she makes a conscious effort to hold it firmly. On the other hand, I'm pretty good with a single action semi-automatic but a semi or revolver with a long double-action trigger will occasionally trip me up because I'm used to short triggers and I'll let off the trigger before the shot breaks. We also don't have a range nearby so live-fire practice is limited. These are things that wouldn't be taken into account by DGU statistics.

The NYPD statistics provide a lot of information but would not help me or my sister in choosing a defensive weapon type because they primarily measure end results of specific double-action or striker-fired pistols (that my sister and I are not naturally inclined to shoot well anyway). We also behave differently. I can shoot 10 rounds of .45 faster and as accurately as I can 6 of .357. My sister on the other hand shoots slowly. An extra four rounds of .45 would be nice, but her chances of placing up to 6 shots well with the revolver are markedly better than her placing the first 6 well with any semi-automatic in the same time frame. So the short answer for any revolver vs. semi-automatic debate is, it depends on who's shooting it.
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Old December 24, 2013, 04:21 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SansSouci
But cyber gun talk (platform talk for the politically correct crowd) is fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SansSouci (from another thread)
I can't find a platform store in the phone book. However, we have a few gun stores in our neck of the woods.

I never was much for the politically correct crowd.
That's the second time I've seen you mistunderstand the term "platform" as being a politically correct term. It has NOTHING to do with being politically correct, it's a term used to describe a general type of gun. For example: An AR-15 is not any one specific gun, it's a core design that many companies build off of, hence the term "platform".

If you don't understand the term, that's fine. But your uninformed sarcasm on this and other subjects in other threads is starting to wear on me.
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Old December 26, 2013, 10:14 PM   #57
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well a 30-06 to the forehead ought to provide that "mythical" one shot stop.
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Old December 26, 2013, 10:25 PM   #58
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well a 30-06 to the forehead ought to provide that "mythical" one shot stop.
Context miss. The "mythical one shot stop" language is a slight exaggeration intentionally applied to handgun discussion for the purpose of making a point about the general suck that is handgun stopping ability.
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Old December 27, 2013, 05:10 PM   #59
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I think the difference in reliability of an auto and a revolver at this point is more or less user based. For someone who rarely or never shoots a DA revolver is much easier. Have you ever seen someone load bullets into a revolver backwards?
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Old December 29, 2013, 05:35 PM   #60
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I get so tired of hearing this over and over and over again. It's really not a good idea to rely on this sound to scare away an attacker; that means you're intentionally keeping the chamber empty until the bad guy is close enough to hear it. And at this point he knows where you are and what kind of weapon you have.
And everytime that saying is used, the people replying seem to misunderstand it. Noone is saying that you should RELY on the sound to scare the attacker off right away. It's just another trick up your sleeve. I keep my shotgun loaded with an empty chamber. If the bad guy decides to continue with his actions, believe me, the next sound coming from that gun will be alot louder and alot more violent than a "cha-chuk". Then again, my house is small enough that any intruder will be pretty well aware of my position regardless of any noises I make.

As for the reliability of autos VS revolvers, I would have to give that to autos as well. Let's be honest here. Any decent quality semi of reasonably recent manufacture will be plenty reliable if you test it with the ammo you plan to use. While a revolver my be slightly less likely to jam up, when they jam, they JAM. And it's pretty much out of commission until you get it back home and sort it out. If a semi jams, tap and rack and you're back in business. No sweat.

Revolvers are fun range toys but for defense, I'll take a bottom-feeder please.
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Old December 29, 2013, 06:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Nickel Plated
Noone is saying that you should RELY on the sound to scare the attacker off right away.
Maybe he's not saying it here, but I hear customers say this at least once a day at the LGS where I work, and about 95% of the time they're talking about intentionally using this sound to scare off an attacker. And that's a mistake in my opinion, because this means you had your chamber empty while you waited to get close enough for the intruder to hear it clearly.

I leave the chamber empty on my 870, but in a home-defense situation I'm racking a round into the chamber as soon as I pick it up. If that sound happens to scare away the intruder then that's great, but that wasn't part of my plan.
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Old December 30, 2013, 08:34 PM   #62
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The reason to keep a shotgun unchambered is that they may not be drop safe. When you pick it up - you chamber it immediately. Sound effects are side effects.

I told a racker that if he was my opponent - after his rack - he would here a series of bang, bangs and rounds in his direction.
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Old December 30, 2013, 09:15 PM   #63
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Great conversation here to be sure. Many lessons learned but the one key for me in terms of CCW is that whatever one chooses to carry and, because it can fail, carry not just an extra mag or speed-loader but a BUG. Absent this and it's good luck...
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Old December 30, 2013, 10:17 PM   #64
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Interestedly enough, the sound of a 12ga. pump gun being racked is the same as the sound of a .410 pump gun being racked.....but the .410 is easier on the ears & the shoulder while being just as hard on the BG....
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Old December 30, 2013, 10:27 PM   #65
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I think if I hear a 'bump in the night' I will grab my 9mm but quickly play my cell phone "Rack-the-Slide" App (and yes there is one) to scare off the bad guy/s...
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Old December 31, 2013, 04:45 PM   #66
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The reason to keep a shotgun unchambered is that they may not be drop safe. When you pick it up - you chamber it immediately. Sound effects are side effects.
^^^^^
This.

I just recently heard my boss repeat the line about the sound of a shotgun being racked but I didn't debate her because if the sound effect doesn't work, then what follows should.
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Old December 31, 2013, 08:04 PM   #67
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KyJim,

I can tell you from experience that the sound of a racking 870 does get bad guys' attention.
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Old January 1, 2014, 12:28 AM   #68
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I kept my 870 with no round in the chamber because if you put a round in the chamber then you have to either leave the gun sitting around needing only a bump of the trigger to make it fire, or put the safety on, and in a pinch I do not want to be trying to find the safety button and push it off, I want to be able to just rack and roll.
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Old January 1, 2014, 01:25 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
The reason to keep a shotgun unchambered is that they may not be drop safe. When you pick it up - you chamber it immediately....
And leaving a shotgun's chamber empty is reasonable because it's a two handed weapon, making using both hands to manipulate the gun a chamber a round a reasonable expectation.

But one might not have both hands available when needing to use one's handgun. Either a revolver or a semi-auto with a round chambered can be put to use with one hand.

Note that in the NYPD reports linked to earlier, officers report using their sidearms one-handed with some frequency. For example, in the 2012 report (pg 21):
Quote:
...Of the 33 officers who reported their shooting techniques for ID AC incidents in 2012, 61% (20) gripped the firearm with two hands....
In other words, of those reporting technique, 39% fired their handguns one-handed.
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Old January 1, 2014, 03:28 AM   #70
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I wonder if the one handed firing was "stick the gun in the direction of the bad guy and pull the trigger" or, was the off hand busy holding an arm with a knife attached, pulling open a car door, fending off a stick to the head etc.
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Old January 1, 2014, 06:14 AM   #71
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Old Debate. But Statistics?

No Written Statistics here . Just facts. As far as these failures go- EVERYONE- who has spent time at the range or just shooting with friends has seen one or more of these happen in person. Therefore I guess you could call these statistics in a way.

Scenario: Someone just broke into your house . You grab your weapon of choice. Possible failures:

#1 Semi-auto-
a. I know I keep it loaded at all times. Did I put one up the tube?
b. Where's that safety? (new gun scenario) or gun has 2 or 3 Lawyer safeties
c. I always leave the safety off and the chamber empty--jack a shell in,darn, didn't jack the slide right . Oops. Jam-
d. I manage to jack one in the chamber-Intruder now knows your general location.
e. I keep it cocked and locked. I click off the safety. Bang , Only got one round. Magazine wasn't properly inserted.
f. I did everything properly. Pull the trigger. snap. dud. Have to jack in a round under pressure. Intruder heard the snap of the hammer. Hope it doesn't jam .
g. I shoot one or two rounds and gun just plain jams.
h. My wife is home alone and has no idea of how I set my semi-auto for such emergencies. Doesn't shoot as much as I do.

#2 Double Action Revolver with transfer bar (no safety)-

a. snap-dud- I Keep pulling the trigger until round a goes off.(bad reloads)
b. pull trigger -bang- recoil backed out one of the bullets(heavy caliber guns)


My scenarios--
a. I pick up my DA Revolver with up to date, well manufactured, ammo--bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang
b. My wife picks up her DA revolver with up to date, well manufactured, ammo--bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang
c. I pick up my wife's DA Revolver with up to date, well manufactured, ammo--bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang
d. My wife picks up my DA revolver with up to date, well manufactured, ammo--bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang
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Old January 1, 2014, 01:45 PM   #72
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Quote:
Note that in the NYPD reports linked to earlier, officers report using their sidearms one-handed with some frequency...
Demonstrated here. I love the reporter's accent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W8cHwNuqH4

With those ultra heavy DAO New York triggers, one handed firing become the ultimate "spray and pray"...


Quote:
#1 Semi-auto-
a. I know I keep it loaded at all times. Did I put one up the tube?
b. Where's that safety? (new gun scenario) or gun has 2 or 3 Lawyer safeties
c. I always leave the safety off and the chamber empty--jack a shell in,darn, didn't jack the slide right . Oops. Jam-
d. I manage to jack one in the chamber-Intruder now knows your general location.
e. I keep it cocked and locked. I click off the safety. Bang , Only got one round. Magazine wasn't properly inserted.
f. I did everything properly. Pull the trigger. snap. dud. Have to jack in a round under pressure. Intruder heard the snap of the hammer. Hope it doesn't jam .
g. I shoot one or two rounds and gun just plain jams.
h. My wife is home alone and has no idea of how I set my semi-auto for such emergencies. Doesn't shoot as much as I do.
Hmm, mine goes,
A) grab CZ SP-01 Phantom with NEBO under barrel light,



b) Engage, if necessary. Pistol is loaded with one under the hammer at all times, decocked to half cock notch and ready to go. It doesn't fail. My wife has her own CZ pistols and is completely aware of how they all operate.

I don't feel badly armed with a revolver, but I have had revolvers jam on me in the past, sometimes with good ammo, due to unseen damage or other conditions. Doesn't mean I wouldn't take a wheelgun, carry one once in a while myself, and feel just fine, but for the night time/someone got through layers of security and the dogs time, I would prefer my semi auto, perhaps even this one, with a loaded magazine capacity of 19 rounds + one. That's a standard revolver loaded three times plus two. I pray I never need the first round, much less the last, but if trouble comes to me that I must deal with, I'd rather be standing with unused ammo in the mag than the opposite.

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Old January 1, 2014, 02:02 PM   #73
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Bezoar,

Ain't no doubt in my mind than a bullet from an '06 to the head will kill anything, including elephant were the bullet a solid. The fly in your ointment is that a rifle ain't very practical for carrying while shopping, etc.
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Old January 1, 2014, 02:04 PM   #74
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Eight is Enough,

In a former line of work, our 870's never had a shell in the chamber. The magazine was full up of 00 buck shells. We had to rack it to use it.
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Old January 1, 2014, 10:33 PM   #75
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I own both revolvers and automatics, and it's not a matter of one vs. the other. I have about a half dozen handguns secreted about the premises, and they're all revolvers. As is my CCW gun.
The reason is my erroneous, ill-informed anxiety about leaving springs compressed, firing pins under tension, all that incredible nonsense. Revolvers can be loaded and ready to shoot and still be completely at rest - nothing stressed or tensed. Completely inert, completely safe, with nothing to weaken or fail, no switches to throw or levers to thumb, and yet be instantly ready for action if needed.
But here's my hypocrisy - I also keep a Remington 1100 12 gauge shotgun in my bedroom closet if needed - fully loaded but unchambered. So, here I have a magazine spring fully compressed for relatively long periods of time between shoots (about 4-6 months). I also keep an AK47 Underfolder ready with a 75 round drum magazine. Why instead of a standard 30 round banana? Because the drum magazine spring is completely relieved, and only wound when needed.
OK, OK, I know, I'm nuts. Oh well, my dog loves me.
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