The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 22, 2013, 08:16 PM   #26
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 2,010
I would just box them up, and store them with a trusted friend in Arizona.

When your trip is completed, you can just drive back to Arizona in two days and pick them up yourself.

Call it a mini-vacation.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old November 22, 2013, 08:21 PM   #27
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
Quote:
Of course, having access to a safe deposit box is dependent on one being available in a convenient location.
Some banks only rent them out to their regular customers.
So, open an account with a few bucks, get a safety deposit box for 3 or 6 months; come back, close the account after emptying your box

no biggie; I know folks who do this every time they travel northward and decide to go to Canada at the last minute
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old November 22, 2013, 08:34 PM   #28
RX-79G
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2013
Posts: 1,139
Gentleman,

Respectfully, we are all reading the same laws. The difference is looking for a narrow definition of the language in the laws and presuming that the law reads as a guide to what is allowed, rather than what is forbidden. One could draw a parallel between reading 2A as an individual right, or presuming that the militia part defines the rest of it as a restriction to militias only.

As I doubt Dogtown only sells guns to militias, let's talk about what the law does and does not say, and what we're supposed to make of what it says:

Quote:
Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.
Quote:
What it DOES say is that if YOU ship a firearm interstate addressed to you, the recepient does not violate the law unless they open the box. You are completely ignoring or ignorant of the /federal laws regarding interstate commerce in firearms.
In the regs you quote, it doesn't say "recipient" anywhere. The sentence "Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm," stands on its own, without designating that this is about the recipient. In fact, it would be most accurate to say that no person who handles the package can open it BUT the owner - which includes the carrier(s). Where did you read recipient?

Quote:
Horsehockey. FedEx employees are acting as "common carriers".
Using your brilliant theory anyone could ship firearms interstate to each other, claiming "but, but, but I'm just a courier!".
The law actually refers to "common and contract carriers". What makes this messy is that both of these are definitions used in interstate commerce. But let me suggest that my brilliant theory is that anyone who you ask to carry something for you is a contract carrier. As long as the firearm is not unwrapped by either the contract carrier or the common carrier, both are complying with the law. If your friend drops a package you wrapped, addressed and paid for at FedEx, he has "carried" the package, not taken possession of the firearm. The fact that he carried out this "carry contract" for free or for a fee doesn't make him any different than any other contracted carrier. (All of which may be irrelevant if that carrier never crossed a state line, which is what 18 USC regulates.) This is the reason even your movers can legally transport your firearms for you.
Quote:
The person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported.
Who's a "mover"?

Finally, the rest of your disagreement comes from a extremely restrictive view of what a "shipper" is, or what you do to "ship" something. I'm quite sure that anyone who boxed, addressed, contracted the shipping and paid for the shipping of something illegal to ship - like cocaine - would be charged for violations of interstate commerce laws, regardless of whether they dropped it off at FedEx or had someone else do it. The opposite, that a person who intends to ship something but does everything BUT hand it to the contract carrier can't both be true. Either the shipper is the one who causes shipping to happen, or it is a variety of other people who simply handle a box, paste a label, etc.

Imagine what it would be like to live in a country where your friend hands a box to the UPS driver because you're in the bathroom, and that act causes him to be in violation of Federal interstate commerce law. Ridiculous!



I am all for following the law, and the intent and language of the law is to prevent illegal interstate transfers and prevent seemingly accidental possession. But "possession" under 18 USC is, at best, poorly defined. There are numerous legal situations where one could assume a change in possession has happened when it has not. It is why a felon can marry and co-habitate with a gun owner, why you can contract to send a gun over state lines, and why you can lend a handgun to a minor for work or to anyone else for "sporting purposes".

The laws are a guide to what is forbidden, which is the way laws are supposed to work in a free country. That does create areas that appear gray, but when it isn't spelled out as black, free people should assume it is white.


And in the case of you handing a gun to a browsing customer, show me which law specifically says that is permissible. If possession is as restrictive as you believe, how are you not violating this principle when you hand a gun to someone without transferring first?

The answer is likely that "taking possession" is a more specific activity than handing off a box or holding a gun. I would imagine that the most important aspect of possession is intent - which is why a broken open gun box also doesn't make someone into a felon. Nor does a good faith effort on a person's part to use contract and common carriers to send a firearm to themselves. There are no "exemptions" needed when something isn't specifically prohibited.

I think too many gun people get carried away making broad and paralyzing interpretations of the laws. There is an awful lot of stuff that is clearly permissible that the law doesn't specifically delineate, and this is one of those things.
RX-79G is offline  
Old November 22, 2013, 10:20 PM   #29
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,559
Oh good grief it gets better.........

Quote:
In the regs you quote, it doesn't say "recipient" anywhere. The sentence "Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm," stands on its own, without designating that this is about the recipient. In fact, it would be most accurate to say that no person who handles the package can open it BUT the owner - which includes the carrier(s). Where did you read recipient?
I'm starting to think you're a troll.

If you take the stance that certain sentences "stand on their own".....what about "A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person..." ? It doesn't say friend, wife, roommate or neighbor does it?

As far as my use of the term recepient, if the person who receives the package at that out of state address for the owner isn't the recepient........then who the heck is? Addressee and recepient are not necessarily the same thing. I am a licensed dealer, all of my firearm shipments are delivered to my UPS Store account where they sign for those packages.....I am the addressee, they are receiving the firearms for me.


Quote:
The law actually refers to "common and contract carriers". What makes this messy is that both of these are definitions used in interstate commerce. But let me suggest that my brilliant theory is that anyone who you ask to carry something for you is a contract carrier. As long as the firearm is not unwrapped by either the contract carrier or the common carrier, both are complying with the law. If your friend drops a package you wrapped, addressed and paid for at FedEx, he has "carried" the package, not taken possession of the firearm. The fact that he carried out this "carry contract" for free or for a fee doesn't make him any different than any other contracted carrier. (All of which may be irrelevant if that carrier never crossed a state line, which is what 18 USC regulates.) This is the reason even your movers can legally transport your firearms for you.
This is classic.....mind if I email this to my ATF IOI?
You have a serious misunderstanding of who may be a common carrier and how they are regulated. Start reading here:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/te...pter-II/part-I




Quote:
And in the case of you handing a gun to a browsing customer, show me which law specifically says that is permissible.
Sorry, it's not against Federal law to do so. If you think it is YOU need to provide the citation.



Quote:
If possession is as restrictive as you believe, how are you not violating this principle when you hand a gun to someone without transferring first?
Seriously? Possession, ie "holding the firearm in your hands" is not the same as the transfer of possession that occurs when a dealer sells and transfers a firearm to a customer.

And since you brought it up earlier, the temporary loan of a firearm to a nonresident isn't a transfer of possession either. Although the nonresident may be physically holding that firearm, and shooting it.


Your assumptions are based on a complete lack of understanding of the difference between the mere act of holding a firearm and the legal act of a transfer of possession. While you believe the differences to be minor, ATF does not.
__________________
Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)
dogtown tom is offline  
Old November 22, 2013, 10:53 PM   #30
RX-79G
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2013
Posts: 1,139
I'm feeling a little trolled, myself.

The regulations don't refer to who the person is who can't open the package - it is everyone who comes in contact with it who isn't the owner. That includes, but is not restricted to the recipient. That is your idea, it doesn't come from anywhere. ALL persons who handle a boxed firearm in transit aren't allowed to open and take possession of it.

Quote:
This is classic.....mind if I email this to my ATF IOI?
You have a serious misunderstanding of who may be a common carrier and how they are regulated. Start reading here:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/te...pter-II/part-I
What's classic is reading what I wrote about CONTRACT carriers and then responding with more about COMMON carriers. Contract carriers are anyone contracted to move your stuff. A common carrier does it on a schedule for the general public. UPS and FedEx are common carriers, Mayflower and Two Guys and a Truck are contract carriers. There is no discernible difference between a regular person and a contract carrier, especially in state. There is no special license to become a contract carrier of a firearm.

Contract carrier. Mover. Both mentioned in the regs.

Quote:
Seriously? Possession, ie "holding the firearm in your hands" is not the same as the transfer of possession that occurs when a dealer sells and transfers a firearm to a customer.
So, you think that someone holding a box with a gun in it is possession, but holding the gun itself is not?

I know it is legal for your customers to handle your guns, but you don't seem to understand why it is legal. It is legal because it is not prohibited, just as it is not prohibited to have someone carry your boxed gun to a common carrier. Neither are specifically prohibited, but you say one is illegal possession and the other not. Bizarre.


And I'm in the process of writing up a bunch of this stuff to the ATF to get a letter back, because there is so much disagreement on this board about stuff that shouldn't be so hard.
RX-79G is offline  
Old November 22, 2013, 11:34 PM   #31
Powderman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2001
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,161
Fellas.....

Here it is:

1. YOU may ship a firearm to yourself. Example: I decide to again attend the Nationals at Camp Perry. I don't feel like driving, and I don't want the hassle of trying to transport by air. What to do?

Box the guns up, nothing on the outside that says "firearms", and take it to an authorized UPS Shipping Center--not a storefront or franchise. Tell them what you are doing, and have them ship to a specific center (they can provide a list) with a notation to "hold for pickup". Make your trip, pick up your guns.

2. Ship the same way, but ship it to a friend's address. Of course, you have contacted the friend, told them what is going on and you both agree. You have also told them that under NO circumstances can they or anyone else open the package. (Of course, you're going to insure the dickens out of it.)

You may NOT have someone else ship the firearm to you--unless YOU have sent the gun to an authorized repair center (factory) or gunsmith for repairs, in which case it can be shipped directly back to you.\

That wasn't so hard.....was it?
__________________
Hiding in plain sight...
Powderman is offline  
Old November 23, 2013, 12:08 AM   #32
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-79G
In the regs you quote, it doesn't say "recipient" anywhere. The sentence "Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm," stands on its own, without designating that this is about the recipient. In fact, it would be most accurate to say that no person who handles the package can open it BUT the owner - which includes the carrier(s). Where did you read recipient?
Dogtown Tom didn't quote a regulation -- he quoted the BATFE guidance about the regulation.

The law is found at 18 USC ยง 922 - Unlawful acts.

Then there's 27 CFR 478.28 and 478.31

Read those, and then tell us where it's legal for someone else to ship a box with your gun in it to you.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old November 23, 2013, 01:17 AM   #33
RX-79G
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2013
Posts: 1,139
Tell me where it says an FFL can hand a gun to someone without a transfer.

I'd wager you won't find that written, either.
RX-79G is offline  
Old November 23, 2013, 01:26 AM   #34
JimmyR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2012
Posts: 1,012
Personally, I think shipping might be more expensive and more of a legal hassle than you want to deal with.

I do have a suggestion that hasn't been mentioned, but might be doable.

Find a Pawnbroker with an FFL. Pawn the guns for a few dollars, and they give you a certain amount of time to get them back. Once you return to the states, you can either go back and pick it up, or (if the pawnbroker will let you, something worth investigating ahead of time), mail them a check for what you owe (typically the amount of the "loan" plus 10-15%) plus shipping to an Ohio FFL of your choice. You then have 1) Safe storage of your weapon, 2) Travel cash, and 3) no legal hassles.

If the pawn shop is an FFL, then they would be able to ship the weapon via US Mail, and that can often be cheap enough to offset the 10-15% you have to pay them and the FFL transfer in your new home state.
JimmyR is offline  
Old November 23, 2013, 05:13 AM   #35
Powderman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2001
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,161
Good idea about the pawnbroker.

Unfortunately, there are still a couple of rough spots:

1. A pawnbroker can accept a firearm in pawn (assuming they have all the licenses.).

2. The pawnbroker MUST, upon redemption of the loan, execute a Form 4473.
3. This must be done IN PERSON.
4. In this instance, it is just like you're buying a firearm--the transfer process and laws governing it are the same. A long gun is usually no problem, as long as it's legal in your State of residence, and the State the transfer is done in.
5. For a handgun, you MUST have the transfer done IN PERSON in your State of residence.
6. Upon completion of the 4473, a NICS check is performed, with a transaction reference number generated. Again, exact procedures vary from State to State.

Now, if you have a home of record--and an actual PHYSICAL address within the State you're ending up in, then this might be possible.

Your best bet? I would suggest calling the ATF Compliance Office. No, they don't have two heads, nor do they spit acid. They do, however, appreciate people calling and getting clarification from the source.
__________________
Hiding in plain sight...
Powderman is offline  
Old November 23, 2013, 01:25 PM   #36
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,559
Quote:
RX-79G I'm feeling a little trolled, myself.
Why?
I didn't join this forum last month and have been on here for years.



Quote:
The regulations don't refer to who the person is who can't open the package - it is everyone who comes in contact with it who isn't the owner. That includes, but is not restricted to the recipient. That is your idea, it doesn't come from anywhere. ALL persons who handle a boxed firearm in transit aren't allowed to open and take possession of it.
Yes they do.
Read the ATF FAQ posted earlier.






Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This is classic.....mind if I email this to my ATF IOI?
You have a serious misunderstanding of who may be a common carrier and how they are regulated. Start reading here:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/te...pter-II/part-I
What's classic is reading what I wrote about CONTRACT carriers and then responding with more about COMMON carriers.
Whats classic is you thinking you discovered some secret regulation.
We ALREADY KNOW about that regulation since we deal with it all the time.




Quote:
Contract carriers are anyone contracted to move your stuff. A common carrier does it on a schedule for the general public. UPS and FedEx are common carriers, Mayflower and Two Guys and a Truck are contract carriers.
Thank you Captain Obvious for this secret information.



Quote:
There is no discernible difference between a regular person and a contract carrier, especially in state. There is no special license to become a contract carrier of a firearm.
Wrong.
And since this involves an INTERSTATE shipment you would be committing a felony.




Quote:
Contract carrier. Mover. Both mentioned in the regs.
No kidding?



Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Seriously? Possession, ie "holding the firearm in your hands" is not the same as the transfer of possession that occurs when a dealer sells and transfers a firearm to a customer.
So, you think that someone holding a box with a gun in it is possession, but holding the gun itself is not?
If you knew an iota of Federal law you would know the difference.


Quote:
I know it is legal for your customers to handle your guns, but you don't seem to understand why it is legal. It is legal because it is not prohibited, just as it is not prohibited to have someone carry your boxed gun to a common carrier. Neither are specifically prohibited, but you say one is illegal possession and the other not. Bizarre.
I understand PERFECTLY. You do not understand the exemption on a person shipping a firearm to themselves. It's a matter of understand simple English.


Quote:
And I'm in the process of writing up a bunch of this stuff to the ATF to get a letter back, because there is so much disagreement on this board about stuff that shouldn't be so hard.
You are the ONLY one in disagreement.
Good luck with your letter......see you back here in 6-9 months.
__________________
Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)
dogtown tom is offline  
Old November 23, 2013, 01:31 PM   #37
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,559
Quote:
JimmyR Personally, I think shipping might be more expensive and more of a legal hassle than you want to deal with.
Since neither UPS or FedEx will ship to a nonlicensee the idea of shipping the gun by the OP to friend or family is moot.

The OP's easiest option is shipping to a dealer who will hold it for her.








Quote:
Find a Pawnbroker with an FFL. Pawn the guns for a few dollars, and they give you a certain amount of time to get them back. Once you return to the states, you can either go back and pick it up, or (if the pawnbroker will let you, something worth investigating ahead of time), mail them a check for what you owe (typically the amount of the "loan" plus 10-15%) plus shipping to an Ohio FFL of your choice. You then have 1) Safe storage of your weapon, 2) Travel cash, and 3) no legal hassles.
Very convulted and overly complicated vs just shipping it to any Ohio FFL who stores it until they move to Ohio.




Quote:
If the pawn shop is an FFL, then they would be able to ship the weapon via US Mail, and that can often be cheap enough to offset the 10-15% you have to pay them and the FFL transfer in your new home state.
Tell me how paying a pawn shop a percentage PLUS transfer fee is cheaper than having an AZ dealer mail it to the Ohio dealer?
__________________
Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)
dogtown tom is offline  
Old November 23, 2013, 04:11 PM   #38
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
Tell me how shipping it to a dealer to hold is cheaper than my previously mentioned safe deposit box?
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old November 23, 2013, 04:27 PM   #39
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,559
Quote:
BigD_in_FL Tell me how shipping it to a dealer to hold is cheaper than my previously mentioned safe deposit box?
First, tell us where anyone said anything of the sort.
__________________
Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)
dogtown tom is offline  
Old November 24, 2013, 01:01 AM   #40
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 9,194
I'm not FFL and won't duck in to the middle of a legal argument.

Ohio is a somewhat large state, depending on your perspective. You didn't mention whereabouts in the state you will end up at. Could be near Cincy, south.... Cleveland, north... or smack dab in the middle, where I am. Or anywhere else.

I'm also unclear as to how long you will be in Ohio?!

No matter. Purpose of my post is to point you to Gun Envy, LLC. If your destination or your trip route includes the center of the state, try these folks.

I have absolutely NO IDEA if they can help you. What I am certain about is that these are fine people. Small shop, large & dedicated customer base, and for a reason. Fantastic folks who won't waste even a minute of your time. They can help you... or perhaps they cannot. If they know even a smidge of help, they'll offer it with no strings attached.

This place and these guys are what the average gundood wants in a local FFL/Gun Shop.

Contact info here:
http://www.gunenvystore.com/
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11554 seconds with 9 queries