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Old November 14, 2013, 06:53 PM   #1
Crankgrinder
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1.175 for 45 auto?

hello everyone, im finally getting into 45 auto and of course im going to reload for it like I do everything else that I shoot. The gun that ive come up with is a ruger sr1911. I have 2 load manuals, the lyman 49th and the Lee book. The bullets that I have are Lee 200gr tl swc. Lyman49th lists a load for 6.3gr -7-0gr power pistol with 200gr lead bullet seated to 1.161. As I was setting up to load my first batch I used the drop test in the barrel and noticed that bullets seated to 1.235 do not chamber properly. It seems that the shoulder of the swc bullet hangs up in the chamber. My gun seems to like 1.175 as far as fit. my load thus far has come out to 6.6gr power pistol over 200gr lswc seated to oal of 1.175. The load is listed in the manual but does anyone have experience with this load or perhaps seating 45 auto to such depth with similar powder?
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Old November 14, 2013, 07:31 PM   #2
Nick_C_S
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1.175 sounds awfully short.

If your 200g LSWC is from the same mold shape as every 200g LSWC I've ever seen in the last 30 years, I'd expect the OAL to be longer. Maybe it's a different bullet profile than I'm thinking of; but if not. . .

The perfect fit for my Colt 1911 is 1.235" and for my Springfield 1911 is 1.245"

(I load all my 200g LSWC ammo to 1.235" - unless I was going to match shoot with my Springfield - and I don't - I wouldn't bother loading to 1.245" just for the Springfield. 1.235" works just fine in both guns.)

What got my attention wasn't the OAL per se`. What got my attention is the short OAL with the use of Power Pistol. Loading Power Pistol with an excessively short OAL could be troublesome. More so than most powders.

Power Pistol is a flake powder that is a derivative of Bullseye (thanks 57K) and is not very forgiving. I consider it for the advance loader (not to imply you're not an advanced loader) because it can pressure spike when it's loaded in some awkward way - like with a peculiarly short OAL.

I'm not familiar with the Ruger 1911 and maybe the 1.175 is right for the gun (would seem odd though). But with such a short OAL, I'd recommend just going over your load data one more time to double check everything, and maybe consider reducing the load for safety.

Maybe there's nothing to worry about here. But I'm seeing a "JDLR" - Just Doesn't Look Right.
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Old November 14, 2013, 08:20 PM   #3
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The bullets are tumble lube style. I believe that is what could be causing my chambering problems as they have a shoulder at the top of the lube grooves. You are certainly right the oal does indeed seem awfully short, and it makes the bullets look strange to boot. That is the load listed in my lyman book, there are two sets of data, one for 1.235 and one for 1.161 both for 200gr bullets but it sure is strange. Worse come to worst ill just have to eat the money I spent on the six hole mold (which is cheap as far as molds go) and go to a different style that will let me seat out farther. Sure hate to have to go to pan lubing bullets or buying a lubri-sizer of some kind. I have to say though I couldn't say im an advanced reloader, Maybe in 25 more years ill be answering some questions and somebody else be asking. I don't extensively try different loads I just find one that works and load it up and shoot it. Power pistol is just what I have on hand from using it with 9mm. If I could find different powder it might be w231 or titegroup or something like that. thanks for the help.
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Old November 15, 2013, 12:56 AM   #4
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Crankgrinder, which of the two Lyman bullets does your's resemble the most? The type that Nick is talking about would be closer to #452630 and the data you're using is for the #452460. I'm not familiar with the LEE TL bullet you're using and I but the type like Nick is talking about that is more akin to the #452630. What I would do is make up a "dummy" with no powder or primer. Since you know 1.235" is too long, make the "dummy's" OACL 1.225" and do the "plunk" test with the barrel removed from your pistol, muzzle pointed down. When you drop the "dummy" into the chamber it should make an audible "plunk" sound. If not, seat the bullet .010" deeper to an OACL of 1.215" and so on until it does pass the "plunk" test.

If you can, post a pic of your bullet. If it turns out that your bullet works somewhere between the 2 extremes of 1.161" and 1.235", your load range will also likely be proportional to the difference you actually get with your "dummy." If it's about midway, then you would probably want to hold the Max. charge to 7.2 grs. of PP. The 6.6 gr. charge your using to start should work as a stating point for the OACL you determine for your bullet and the SR 1911's chamber.
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Old November 15, 2013, 05:31 PM   #5
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If it's working well in your gun it's good.

I note I load a 255g LSWC to a very very short OAL (1.190") in my 1911s.......



Power Pistol is extremely progressive in properly loaded 45 ACP; your 6.6g might even be considered 'light'.
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Old November 15, 2013, 08:39 PM   #6
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Really depends on the profile of the bullet, I load some .45 Super that I have to load to 1.190" (250gr XTP) and even 1.170" (255gr WFNPB), but that's mainly because they're somewhat blunt and they contact the rifling sooner than more sleek designs. Plus some handguns have almost no throat, my .40 cal Kahr CM40 has almost none yet my KKM .40 barrels will accept them loaded all the way out to 10mm length.
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Old November 15, 2013, 08:47 PM   #7
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Thank you all. every time in in one of these ordeals these forums are the biggest help. There is just not enough time for one to go through what it takes to learn it all. I did the barrel drop test first its what brought me to the oal I have. I also found some additional material over at castboolits. Aparently my issue has been experienced by some others. http://http://castboolits.gunloads.c...-452-200gr-SWC. The bullet depicted is the one I have, and its dimensions match up as well. There is a .028 difference in the band lengths, and a difference of .067 in the nose profiles. a load with oal of 1.178 with the additional nose length of the longer bullet would come out to 1.245, a standard oal. I do machine work, but I do not work much in percentages but if I plan to seat the shoulder out .030 this would seem to negate the .028 difference in the length of the lands, and bring case capacity to its normal volume. Hope im right on that please check me somebody.
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Old November 17, 2013, 01:20 AM   #8
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If it is a SWC, the COL should be such that at least 1/32" of bullet shoulder should be above the case mouth. I usually set COL such that the bullet shoulder just touches the lede/rifling, thus minimizing head space.
Pictures are always good to show what you are doing.
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Old November 17, 2013, 07:29 PM   #9
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Crankgrinder, there's a problem with the link you posted.

noylj is correct, 1/32" of the shoulder exposed above the case-mouth is the old rule of thumb I learned with as well. Again though, it's still dependent on the actual bullet you're loading for your pistol. I'm not familiar with the LEE bullet you're using but I'm guessing that it's a bit different from the norm. With the longer 200 gr. commercially cast SWCs that are more similar to the #452630 style Lyman 200 gr. SWC, 1.240" is what works best for me. Since yours didn't work at 1.235", there must be something peculiar to that bullet.
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Old November 17, 2013, 07:57 PM   #10
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Believe this http://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-tl452-200swc.html is the bullet we're discussing. I've had good luck with it seating with a 32nd of the shoulder exposed, as usual. Alloy is whatever I've got on hand, they're all good.
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Old November 17, 2013, 08:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
What got my attention wasn't the OAL per se`. What got my attention is the short OAL with the use of Power Pistol. Loading Power Pistol with an excessively short OAL could be troublesome. More so than most powders.
Agree^^^^

Fast powders and short COAL are slippery slopes. I would go with the "Plunk" test as suggested by 57K as well.

I have loaded a little over a 1000 0f the 200 GRN SWC lately. First part of the batch was loaded using WST which is a fast burner as well. Ended up with the WSF. Though the WSF was more forgiving I found the WST to be more consistently accurate and cleaner burning.

Once the WSF is gone I plan to change powders to something a little cleaner, yet I don't want a real fast burner. Probably get some suggestions before I go back to using Blue Dot and settle for what I am more familiar with. (not that Blue Dot is settling)
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Old November 17, 2013, 08:53 PM   #12
Jim Watson
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The Lee TL SWC is considerably shorter in the nose than the usual H&G #68 copy and none of its rules of thumb apply.

If it has to be seated to 1.175" to chamber, that is what you have to work with.
The Lyman 452460 at 1.161" seems a reasonable approximation and loads shown for it should work. I would try it at the Lyman starting load of 6.3 gr PP. I would not make a proportional increase based on 14 thou when there are so many other variables.
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Old November 17, 2013, 09:13 PM   #13
Crankgrinder
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Sorry about the link folks. first one Ive had to post and im not the greatest at posting links. I hope this helps http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-452-200gr-SWC. I have some great news as well. I took 60 rounds to the range today 20 each of 6.2, 6.6 and 7.1 of power pistol. Just took it real slow shooting 5 round strings and examining brass. All of the loads worked without a hitch. No leading or signs of excessive pressures to speak of although recoil with the 7.1 was more stiff than the rest (as expected) but was not what I believe to be abnormal. All loads were seated out to 1.185 and chambered just fine although it sure would have helped lots of people if there could have been some way to know about the short nose of this boolit before I bought the mold. Just want to say thanks again things are looking okay here
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Old November 17, 2013, 09:40 PM   #14
Jim Watson
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Glad it worked out for you.
But 7.1 gr PP is a tenth over maximum for the similar Lyman.
Why push it?

Did the vendor not show a picture of the mold cavity or bullet?
Midway does.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/232...semi-wadcutter
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Old November 17, 2013, 10:22 PM   #15
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I seat my 45 SWC bullets to where the shoulder of the bullet sticks out of the casing by about 1/32" or so, then finish them with a taper crimp. Use a cartridge gauge to make sure they meet SAMI specs. If you use the barrel of your gun it may not meet specs and they still may have trouble chambering - especially in other guns that may have tighter chambers. Even if the the cartridge chambers in your barrel by hand on the reloading bench there may be trouble at the range because there needs to be some play for the the gun to function properly. What does a gauge cost these days, $20?
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Old November 17, 2013, 11:22 PM   #16
Crankgrinder
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Ill definitely look into a cartridge gauge. Honestly I didn't know there was such a thing, and don't worry I may have shot these few max loads for the lyman bullet but for my purposes I stay around mid spec almost always. Yes midway did have a picture of both the mold cavity and the bullet but in my inexperience with 45auto (this is my first 45 and I haven't had it that long) I could not distinguish the difference from comparable boolits. In the future I may also look into another mold of a different style that would give me a more standard oal and more well known variables not to mention better looking bullets.
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Old November 18, 2013, 03:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
If you use the barrel of your gun it may not meet specs and they still may have trouble chambering
If you use the barrel from your pistol you're loading for THAT pistols chamber specifically.

Crankgrinder, case gauges are okay, but the best gauge is YOUR pistol's chamber. Sometimes what meets SAAMI spec in case-gauges will not work for your pistol. Case in point: using the bullet you just loaded and fired, a case gauge would have allowed a much longer OACL than the SR 1911s allowed. Case gauges are made for SAAMI Max. dimensions.

When loading for multiple pistols in the same caliber where you only want to make a single load type, load for the pistol with the tightest chamber dimensions. Loading cast bullets, you're probably going to find that it's best to make the load specific to the pistol it's to be fired from and determine what the proper OACL will be for that bullet and pistol.

The load data for the shorter Lyman SWC shows a Max. charge of PP at 7.0 grs. with the 1.161" OACL where they rated velocity at 919 FPS. That's pretty zippy for a 200 gr. SWC, but at the same time, the pressure rating for that load is only 16,800 CUP where SAAMI Max Average Pressure, or MAP for the .45 ACP is 19,900 CUP which in PSI equates to 21,000. You made quite a jump from 6.6 to 7.1 grs where it is better to work up in smaller increments to find where the best accuracy can be found. I know powders are hard to come by right now, but for cast lead bullets in .45 ACP, there are any number of powders better than Power Pistol. PP is fine for pushing jacketed bullets to high velocity, but because of its very bright muzzle flash it's useless for defense type loads, IMO. Some good cast bullet powders you might want to consider in the future are WST, ZIP and W231 just to name a few.
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Old November 18, 2013, 04:17 PM   #18
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Sounds like you got things mostly resolved. I thought I'd add though that I had the exact same experience with this bullet. I had to load to a really short length to get the rounds to drop freely in my 1911's, but found even at those lengths I couldn't get reliable feeding. So I ultimately abandoned that bullet and went another route. One thing I learned in the process by asking around is that you can in fact tumble lube any bullet, that you don't have to use the micro grooved bullets designed for tumble lubing. So I ended up going to a different 200 grain bullet that was a better copy of the H&G 68, and that one feeds and shoots exceptionally well for me.
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Old November 18, 2013, 06:40 PM   #19
Crankgrinder
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I sure am looking for w231 it seems to be very popular for 45, and its great to know that any bullets can be tumble lubed. Since were talking about loading with lead bullets in general, if a conventional bullet is used and tumble lubed, does it (the lube) have to fill all of the grooves completely or is it enough that it simply covers the outside? I use Lee TL or white label Xlox. The reason I ask now is im still interested in going to a different bullet with a more attractive (to me) profile.
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Old November 18, 2013, 10:35 PM   #20
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COL for SWCs--real simple as I said:
about 1/32" of shoulder above the case mouth. That rule has nothing to do with the ogive of bullet. A Button-nose Wadcutter, like the H&G 130, will have a shorter COL simply because it is a button-nose. You still use the shoulder to lightly contact the rifling/lede.
I load H&G 130s at 1.1500" and H&G 68s at 1.239" depending on barrel. The Hornady L-C/T gets loaded at 1.210". Other SWCs, with even longer ogives are loaded to 1.260".
In ALL cases, the load is worked up to and I never assume anything when I start with a new bullet.
So, there is no single COL for all SWCs, but using a seating stem that ONLY contacts the shoulder means that I very seldom need to touch the seating die.
231/HP38 is my first choice for loading .45 Auto for accuracy. I know that Bullseye is THE .45 powder, but I tried some back in about 1978 and didn't find it that good in my guns. I simply have never bought any more to try. AA2 and Solo 1000 are my next choices.
Any short nose SWC requires a magazine that releases the round early in the feed cycle. The H&G68 was reportedly designed to impact the feed ramp the same as FMJ-RN so it has ALWAYS fed well in almost any .45, unless using cheap "G.I." magazines.
After trying various molds for about four decades, I say the best SWC molds are H&G 68 (or 67(?) with the plain base) and the RCBS 452-201-SWC (or KT at one time). Have not found any one else's mold designs as accurate.
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Old November 18, 2013, 10:57 PM   #21
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No, tumble lube only needs to be on the bearing surface of the bullet and trying to fill the lube grooves would be waste of time, material, and money.
You might want to look into Lar's commercial 45/45/10.
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Old November 18, 2013, 11:28 PM   #22
Crankgrinder
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I have to thank everyone again for sharing their experience. Because of this thread, and whats transpired since it started I believe I now have long, interesting career with my 45 auto. Wanted a 1911 my whole life and finally found one my pocketbook would allow, and its great to know perhaps now it wont be quite so expensive to shoot.
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