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Old September 5, 2013, 08:32 PM   #1
RC20
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IMR4831 vs H4831 Target Loads 30-06

We are still seeing powder shortage but one LGS has IMR4831.

H4831 is one of my mainstays (or was before you could get nothing).

I know you do not mix the two, but what I would like is anyone's experience with them in mild target loads and crossing them directly.

If done, was accuracy the same as near as you could tell?

If the results are good I can start picking up the IMR4831 and if I run down on the H4831 then move into the same load hopefully.

I am hopping the powder shortage is starting to ebb and in the future I will keep a reserve stash to see me through. I hate to do it, but begin responsible did not work, once it got sucked off the shelves the horders kept it sucked off. I am guessing no less than 12 lbs of the go to powders on hand of any one type. Same with primers and bullets. I was shocked to see target bullets go into shortage.

Someone like me trying to be fair and getting just what I needed then could not get any and I don't blame the next guy for stocking when he found it because he got into the same position.
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Old September 5, 2013, 09:24 PM   #2
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All my load data shows the two powers to be 3 or 4 grains different for the same velocity.

I'd work up a new load when you switch from one to the other.

Oh and its not hoarding... Its just being mindful that history repeats itself.

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Old September 5, 2013, 11:24 PM   #3
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Thank you, was thinking a fair difference from what I saw across some of the charts as well.

My other powder is TAC and W748 is very close to that so I may back up the TAC with the W748 for now. I have 2 lb start I got for free so......

I guess I draw the line between getting a stock built up and hording that when its gets low you keep buying it even if you are well supplied (we have a neighbor like that, powder comes in on Tuesday and he is in line and waiting, half his house if full of powder i gather).

As it breaks I will stock up and then keep the levels up. I hate to do that because its money doing nothing but if you can't win you can't win. I just didn't think I would even see it come to that.
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Old September 6, 2013, 12:57 PM   #4
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My dad was in the coastal militia in World War 2 and ammunition was basically non-existent on the homefront. Dad and Grandpa had to make bullets from scratch using empty 22 cases and flattened pennies for half jackets so they had ammo to feed the family and went on patrol. The founders of our country said it is our duty to be prepared and my family takes it very seriously.

That is what I meant by remember history repeats itself.

My dad has bought two bricks of 22 ammo every payday since World War 2. Many people called him crazy over the years, but now those people have been trying to buy ammo off him.
That said, I totally agree with what you said about your neighbor, at some point you have enough.

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Old September 6, 2013, 02:24 PM   #5
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I have very mixed feeling on this. I have sufficient reloads to shoot, but like everyone else finding the powder I have always used is impossible.

Normally I would keep 4 lbs of each powder I use on hand as well as 4,000 of each kind of primers. But trying to do so now is not practical. So purchasing what you can, when you can has become the norm for now. I would not call it hording.

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Old September 7, 2013, 12:26 PM   #6
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No, I would not either.

At some point you have far more than you need.

Like the father, once you get 5,000 of 22 say, is there any point in keep stocking more? I hope he is selling what he has, nice gold mine and I don't blame him. Last guy I knew paid $80 for a brick.

Point is you meet a reasonable need of some kind and sit tight and let someone who is out. Just stock up when it returns so you can ride through a future shortage (my view of that time has been raised to 2 years)

Of course thats being forced now where stores are allowing only one can of powder, box of primers etc. They have my endorsement. It slows it down though you can keep going back or call all the family and have them swing by.

My LGS has 748 now so I am picking up one can a day until I get 4 lbs. Between that and TAC that sees that class powder good for me.

I hope to see the 8 lb return and then will pick up one or two of those.
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Old September 7, 2013, 03:09 PM   #7
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Agreed but...

Quote:
(my view of that time has been raised to 2 years)
2 years for one guy might only be a week for another guy. So its pretty subjective.

My family has wanted for nothing during this "panic" and we've even been able to help out a few friends. This has reaffirmed our beliefs. No one has to agree with our beliefs, our beliefs do not require them to.

Best of luck in your endeavors. Be safe and shoot straight.

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Old September 7, 2013, 05:33 PM   #8
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Neither IMR nor H 4831 are suitable or recommended for reduced loads. This is why you don't see them listed at Hodgdon for bullet weights below 175 grains, and even then the minimum charges are in the low to mid 50's of grains and the maximum charges are compressed. Slow powders do better when the case is more constricted, as with a .270, letting them build pressure better. In low pressure loads, ignition becomes erratic. I've seen cases full of the stuff that squibbed out, leaving a bullet stuck in the barrel. I also seem to recall early reports reports of detonation were with light charges of surplus IMR 4831, leading people to assume that phenomenon only occurred with slow powders (later reports suggest this is not so).
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Old November 15, 2013, 11:24 PM   #9
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I resurrected this again as I ran across some IMR 4831, maybe should have bought it but had not tried it.

I mis-stated the load a bit, what I call low level loads are mid or a bit lower loads but still within the book listing.

Mostly I would like to know if anyone has similar resutls for accuracy in 30-06 if they had good results with one and switched to the other?

The H4831 has done very nicely at 52 grs, if not a tad compressed certainly a full case. 51 grs is the minimum listed in my Sierra book and will go no lower than that.

Mostly I want the best accuracy with the least velocity as I am tryrng to keep form wearing out my old guns (while I do not do a lot of shooting at a single secession I shoot regularly and in 10 years that would be a factor)
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Old November 16, 2013, 04:48 AM   #10
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Is 4350 available?Re-19?
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Old November 16, 2013, 09:03 AM   #11
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Regarding the two powders, my mainstay load in the 270 is 59 grains of H4831. That much IMR4831 in my rifle is too hot. They are similar, but they most certainly are not enough near the same burn rate that they'd be interchangeable.
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Old November 16, 2013, 12:11 PM   #12
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The question is are they cross accurate?

Has anyone done a direct comparison and were the results good?

Loads will be different and understood but purely on a performance basis?


Quote:
Is 4350 available?Re-19?
I have 4350 but I reserves that for the family 270. It works well in that gun.

H4831 has been across the boards a good load in the Model of 1917s so that is the one I am focusing on.

Worst comes to worst I can fill in with 4350 and 4895 but I am trying to get into a position where I have more than enough 4831 of either Hogden or IMR if it proves as accurate to float me through any down periods.

The last I saw IMR was $203 for 8 lbs and the H was $230. If the IMR worked as good as the Hogdens then I would shift to the less expensive one.
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Old November 16, 2013, 12:33 PM   #13
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Finding Minimum Load Data for Your Stuff

I've no idea what criteria publishers of load data use to establish a minimum charge weight for a given cartridge, bullet and powder. But it's easy to find out what your's is with bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulders.

All bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulders have some amount of shoulder setback when the firing pin drives them hard into the chamber shoulder. It varies from 1 to several thousandths inch. The case shoulder stays hard against the chamber shoudler as it expands against the chamber wall starting right behind the shoulder (where brass is the thinnest) then works back to the pressure ring in front of the extractor groove. Cases with low shoulder angles (17.5 degrees on .30-06) and smaller surface areas do so more than those with higher angles and larger areas (40 degrees on .30-06 AI). If there's not enough pressure built up to push the back end of the case hard against the breech face, the case will have a shorter head-to-shoulder dimension than it did before it was fired. Subsequent reloading of such a case without resizing it to push the shoulder back forward to where it was (or specs for the case when new) results in the same thing happening again.

Continued shortening of case headspace results in excessive case head stretching back from the body at the pressure ring. That can be felt with a dog-legged sharp edge put inside the case to feel the thin spot in the case wall. See the link below for an example:

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/casehead02.jpg

One way to find out what a minimum charge for a set of components for bottleneck cases is to use a case headspace gauge (RCBS Precisioin Mic, Hornady LNL, or equivalent made at home) to measure cases before and after firing. Start with your normal maximum load you've worked up to, then load 15 rounds of its fired cases with each one incrementing 1% less than maximum. If your charge weight for you maximum is 60 grains, then load one with 59.4 grains and mark its charge weight on the case, the next with 58.6 so marking it, then 58, then 57.4 and so on down to 51 grains of powder. And every case has its charge weight on it.

Measure the maximum one, record its headspace, write that down, shoot it, measure its headspace then write than number down next to what it was before firing. Move on to the next lightest round and do the same thing. Pay particular attention to when cases end up a thousandth or more less headspace. Check their primers to see if they stick out past the case head. As soon as primers end up pushed out past the case head, that round had a bit too much powder in it to fully expand the case to the chamber. Any round with lighter charge weights will end up with shorter case headspace as well as more of the primer sticking out of the case head. Break down those with lighter powder charges; don't shoot them as they'll end up not good to reload maximum charges with.

So, whatever minimum charge weigh still let the primers remain flush with the case head is your minimum load for that rifle and that set of components. This usually starts around 10% below maximum.
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