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Old November 7, 2013, 05:46 PM   #26
Tom Servo
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Re: Strawman purchase???

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Does DAD fill out the 4473 and say its a gift, or does SON fill out form?

That's the question, isn't it?
In this case, Dad would, since he's the actual buyer.
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Old November 7, 2013, 06:08 PM   #27
RX-79G
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Tom, he can do that, but you're suggesting he can't do the other option.

You've offered no reasoning for that, and haven't referenced the fact that it can only be done the other way over state lines and the raffle wording right on the form.
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Old November 7, 2013, 06:21 PM   #28
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Quote:
You've offered no reasoning for that, and haven't referenced the fact that it can only be done the other way over state lines and the raffle wording right on the form.
I'm not sure how raffles or interstate transfers enter into this.

I have pointed out the salient facts. It's a felony to falsely claim I'm the actual buyer on the form. The ATF considers the person whose money was used to pay for the firearm to be the actual buyer. Therefore, the person who paid for the gun needs to be the person completing the form.
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Old November 7, 2013, 06:36 PM   #29
RX-79G
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Because in the case of a raffle, the "buyer" isn't the one who paid for the firearm. The raffle giver paid for the gun, so how is the winner going to claim that they are the buyer to sign the form?

And interstate stuff pertains because you have to go through an FFL, and you're saying that a gift doesn't qualify. So there would be no possible way to give someone a gun in another state since you're saying the receiver couldn't sign the 4473 as the "buyer".

I think you're misapplying the lesson about money from the other case where the person filling out the form neither paid for it nor was keeping it. "Buying" in this context means becoming the actual owner, not a demand to know how the person receiving the gun managed to finance it.
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Old November 7, 2013, 07:37 PM   #30
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
...The ATF considers the person whose money was used to pay for the firearm to be the actual buyer. Therefore, the person who paid for the gun needs to be the person completing the form.
It's a bit more, shall we say, multilayered than that.

Question 11.a. on the 4473 asks if the person who is filling out the form is the actual transferee/buyer.
  1. You put up the money, you get the gun in the end. That would make you the actual transferee/buyer. So if I fill out the 4473 and claim that I'm the actual transferee/buyer, I've lied.

  2. But if I get the gun in the end, I'm the actual transferee, at least. So even if you've put up the money I can fill out the 4473 and truthfully claim to be the actual transferee. The money/gun is a gift.

    1. It gets confusing because we don't talk about this variation much, but it's consistent with everything else.

    2. Where the money comes from is important not because it's finally determinative. It's important because when seen together with other elements it is circumstantial evidence of intent.

    • So if I you put up the money and get the gun in the end, but I perform the transaction, the totality of the circumstances is pretty conclusive evidence that the intent was the I was getting the gun from the dealer on your behalf, as your agent or proxy; and that I'm not, therefore, the actual transferee.

    • But if you put up the money and I perform the transaction and keep the gun, the totality of the circumstances is pretty conclusive evidence that the intent was for you to make a gift to me of the gun; and I am, therefore, the actual transferee.
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Old November 7, 2013, 07:49 PM   #31
Spats McGee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-79G
Because in the case of a raffle, the "buyer" isn't the one who paid for the firearm. The raffle giver paid for the gun, so how is the winner going to claim that they are the buyer to sign the form?
I'm aware of some raffles where the winner is simply given a check for the MSRP of the gun. So gun laws don't really apply. Also, if I buy a gun and raffle it off (instead of giving the winner a check), it's simply a gift from myself (the actual buyer) to the winner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-79G
And interstate stuff pertains because you have to go through an FFL, and you're saying that a gift doesn't qualify. So there would be no possible way to give someone a gun in another state since you're saying the receiver couldn't sign the 4473 as the "buyer".
In fact, there is no way to give someone a gun in another state without an FFL. If I raffle the gun off and the winner is in another state, it has to go through an FFL, which (I suspect) is why the raffles in which the winner is simply paid the MSRP of the gun is simply sent a check. That avoids the FFL problem.
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Old November 8, 2013, 12:40 AM   #32
RX-79G
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According to our resident lawyer, the source of the money doesn't matter as long as the person signing the form is keeping the gun.

The OP could have done what he originally planned.

Can we put a fork in this or does it have to get complicated again?
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Old November 8, 2013, 12:51 AM   #33
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-79G
According to our resident lawyer,...
Actually several lawyer post here. Spats and I are two of them.

And responses are getting a bit incoherent because everyone is looking at slightly different situations from slightly different perspectives.

So I'm going to shut this down before we start getting off on too many tangents. I think the OP has an answer to his particular situation.
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