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Old November 4, 2013, 03:31 PM   #26
m&p45acp10+1
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I do not use a weapon mounted light on any of my hand guns. I keep a normal 2 AA cell Mag Light. I can see what I need without having to point my weapon the direction of what I am trying to see better with the light. Also they cost money I would rather spend on other stuff like more guns, or reloading supplies. I will knock the use of them if one trains with them. I just do not have much use for one in the things that I do.

I do however have a light on my air rifle that is used for varmints in the dark. It also has a laser. I can see the critter, and where the laser is on them.
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Old November 4, 2013, 08:05 PM   #27
raimius
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I shoot a whole lot better with two hands, so I like the mounted light.
I also have white ceilings that make engaging the light while in the high ready very illuminating (pardon the pun).
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Old November 4, 2013, 11:06 PM   #28
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They are great bullet magnets. My Grandad who was a cop in Milwaukee during the 1920's and 30's taught me the correct tactics when I was a wee lad......

Modern force on force training backs this up. There is a reason police are taught to shoot with their off hand. In real fights many people are shot in the hands/arms. It is also nice to be able to roll your light into an unknown dark room without entering when clearing a building.
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Old November 4, 2013, 11:18 PM   #29
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raimius
I shoot a whole lot better with two hands,...
Which suggests to me that you might want to start training some more in one handed shooting. And there are some techniques which allow a good two handed grip on a pistol while holding a flashlight.
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Old November 5, 2013, 10:27 AM   #30
Derbel McDillet
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Quote:
I keep a normal 2 AA cell Mag Light.
A flashlight with a simple On/Off tail cap switch would serve you better than a twist switch.

My EDC flashlight is a Streamlight MicroStream. It uses a single AAA, has a tail cap On/Off switch, and puts out enough light to quickly ID threats. I clip it to the outer corner of my front pocket. I wear it all day and I don't notice it's there.


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Old November 5, 2013, 12:25 PM   #31
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Thanks all for your civil and thoughtful posts!

I agree - whichever system one chooses, they should learn how to use that system properly and then practice.

Cheers!
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Old November 6, 2013, 12:55 AM   #32
raimius
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Quote:
Which suggests to me that you might want to start training some more in one handed shooting. And there are some techniques which allow a good two handed grip on a pistol while holding a flashlight.
True, but the majority shoot better when using two hands. Why not take advantage of that? One-handed shooting (dominant and weak side) are valuable skills to have, but I don't recommend discounting the easiest grip to get fast, accurate hits.
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Old November 6, 2013, 01:15 AM   #33
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raimius
...the majority shoot better when using two hands. Why not take advantage of that?...
Because in an emergency you might not have two hands available. Circumstances might require that you put your sidearm to use with only one hand.

The NYPD publishes a report every year of firearm discharges by officers. Each year between 20% and 40% or line-of-duty shots in violent encounters are taken one-handed.

So if your interest in the use of a handgun for self defense you really can't ignore the possibility that you will need to shot one-handed.
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Old November 6, 2013, 04:27 AM   #34
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I agree - whichever system one chooses, they should learn how to use that system properly and then practice.
I totally agree with her, by the way I really like the grips you make and welcome to the forum.

My personal preference, (yes preference) is to mount a gun light on the pistol before it goes on the night stand.

It saves me from having to look for two things instead of just picking up the weapon system and getting to work. It provides an additional aid in aiming the pistol as well without using the sights.

As my 18 year old daughter (now 26) frond out one night at 3:00 am while sneaking in the backdoor, her father keeps a weapon light on his pistol at night. It was pointed at the floor 10 feet in-front of her and in her panic she let out "is that a gun in your hand", my reply of course was "is your cell phone broken?"

Know your target use a light.
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Old November 6, 2013, 09:26 AM   #35
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Jim, not "her", but "him" Thanks for the welcome!
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Old November 6, 2013, 08:32 PM   #36
raimius
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Frank, to keep the discussion going, wouldn't one handed shots benefit from having a light included (roughly) on the bore axis?

In reality, I think the best solution is "BOTH." A competent shooter should be able to use weapon-mounted and handheld lights, and quickly deliver accurate shots from strong, weak, and both hands. The set-up for HD/CCW should reflect each user's preferences and abilities (after exploring techniques in training).
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Old November 7, 2013, 12:48 PM   #37
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I use the Harries technique, except for close-quarters, danger close type situations where I use a one-handed technique developed by Ken Good (back when he was with SureFire).

One-handed, I grip the flashlight in my support hand the same way as I do the Harries method but I hold the flashlight just below the side of my chin. My firing arm can either be extended or in the close-quarters position depending on the situation. It works very well for danger close work (blind spots and opening doors) when spontaneous threats may appear.

It's easy to smoothly transition back and forth between the Harries and the Good method to adapt to changing situations I encounter during my movement.
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Old November 7, 2013, 11:46 PM   #38
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WESH.com white light use of force event(LE) WARNING: graphic content....

I just checked on www.wesh.com the NBC affiliate in Orlando/Daytona Beach Florida.
A group of police officers had a use of force event using sidearms with white lights.
A violent subject took a hostage in a bedroom. The uniformed officers look like they had Glocks but it's not confirmed. The caliber(s) are unknown.

WESH has the event recorded from multiple angles/officers with the new body-cam systems. The PD released the unedited footage to the local media.
NOTE: the video contains graphic real images & profane language.

I think all armed professionals & CCW license holders could benefit from watching this clip to see how white lights & lethal force events in low light really happen. Tactics or firearm instructors should pass it on too.

BTW; Id post the link directly but I'm not sure how to do it with the multiple camera angles.

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Old November 8, 2013, 09:34 AM   #39
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Excellent video, Clyde! Thanks for sharing it.

An interesting question is: What happens if intruder gets inside one's house and takes one of your family members hostage in the dark? What would be preferred method of light use: mounted or separate? In this situation, stress levels would be exponentially greater than dealing with typical intruder situation (i.e., when all family members are together in "safe room" or at least not in the hands of the intruder) and requirements for shot placement exponentially greater. This has got to be one of the worst possible situations that we, civilian gun owners, can find ourselves in.
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Old November 8, 2013, 02:26 PM   #40
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I'm only getting the homepage for the news site. Can you post a more specific link?
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Old November 8, 2013, 04:11 PM   #41
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Post #39, Daytona Beach FL PD....

Your welcome.
I'd bring up the point of all the trash, food items, furniture etc made clearing the house & IDing threats hard.

While you use a white light or laser in low light, be aware of ambushes & subjects hiding. The cops had a hard time moving through all the rooms.

If you can't see the video(s), check www.wftv.com or maybe www.orlandosentinel.com .
The Daytona Beach PD might have it on their own homepage or PAO section.

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Old November 8, 2013, 09:36 PM   #42
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It looks good on TV. It also makes an excellent target.
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Old November 8, 2013, 11:28 PM   #43
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You don't have to use it , but I'd say its good idea to have it. On HD gun more then CC gun.
That being said , you also have consider Law. In NY if you point. The gun at somebody ( even if you're just using light ) , it's considered assault with a deadly weapon. I'm sure there a few more screwed up states like NY.
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Old November 8, 2013, 11:43 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valerko
...you also have consider Law. In NY if you point. The gun at somebody ( even if you're just using light ) , it's considered assault with a deadly weapon. I'm sure there a few more screwed up states like NY.
Nothing screwed up about that. In every State if you point a gun at someone it's assault with a deadly weapon or some other type of assault (it's called "menacing" in Alabama). Your defense will be that it was justified. So you better hope that you can establish that the circumstances met the legal standard for justifying assaulting someone with a gun.
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Old November 15, 2013, 09:42 PM   #45
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Everything is a tradeoff. Gun at low ready means more time to react but avoids possibly inadvertently point a firearm at a loved one.....
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Old November 16, 2013, 10:09 AM   #46
Glenn Dee
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First off... in NY if you point a firearm at a person, and cause that person to fear for their life it's menacing.. not assault.

Sorry gang.. for being late to the party.

Lights mounted on handguns...

Having had to draw a gun during a real life situation I can testify it can be very stressfull. A person under stress is subject to making controll surface errors. Not saying it will happen any or every time... but it is much more likely to happen under stress. The flashlight, and the firearm are two seperate tools, with two seperate controls. Putting them into one package I believe would lend to a possible disaster that could easily be avoided.

The reason for drawing a firearm indicates at least the possiblity of your opponent being armed. IMO The gun mounted light makes a really good target. Just because a person have a flashlight either on the gun or off it... is no guarente that the officer/home defender will see the adversary first. If the defender is walking around in the dark with any kind of a flashlight... chances are the adversary will see them coming. That could end badly.

The flashlight and the handgun are seperate tools for seperate tasks. The more stuff you carry is the more stuff you depend on that can fail, or just something else that can be forgotten or left behind. The shorter the checklist in your head. The easier it is to keep up with.
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Old November 16, 2013, 11:16 AM   #47
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Dee
... in NY if you point a firearm at a person, and cause that person to fear for their life it's menacing.. not assault...
It fits the definition of assault, based on the Common Law:
Quote:
an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.
In some States (Alabama, and apparently New York, and perhaps some others) the crime is called "menacing" in the statutes.
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Old November 16, 2013, 11:58 AM   #48
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I get that Frank... But NYS law is very specific. It is Menacing. Class A misdemeanor.
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Old November 25, 2013, 07:32 AM   #49
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I,m a "keep it simple" kind of guy. I have a weapon mounted light on my HD pistol in the quick access safe by the bed along with a good, bright hand held flashlight. But on a practical note, making it part of my EDC pistol just causes more problems than I care to deal with. Just finding holsters that accomedate a mounted light adds more expense and starts to make the gun more cumbersome and more likely to be left at home in favor of a mouse gun. I don't spend a lot of time out and about after dark anyway, I believe in John Farnams theory that you should be home in bed by 10 PM if at all posible. I do always carry a good flashlite on my person as well.
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Old December 31, 2013, 10:51 AM   #50
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my current setup for SD & HD is sig p226, using TLR-2 light/laser as WML + separate dedicated light (surefire executive defender).
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