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Old November 2, 2013, 12:13 PM   #26
Wyosmith
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Let us not drink the cool aid?
Catch phrases are all about marketing.
"Combat Pistol"?
What exactly is that?
And more importantly, what is not a combat pistol?

I used an issue Colt 1911A1 in the Marine Corps and also later working for DOD.
I have also used a S&W M58.

Once I found myself in a sticky spot and all I had was a S&W K-22, which I never fired, but was 100% ready to. The situation worked out when police officers got there before I had to shoot, but the point is still solid.

Any pistol used in a fight for your life is a combat pistol. Some have advantages over others, but "Combat Pistol" is in the same league as "Assault Rifle", "Saturday night Special" and "Hate Crime"
There are phrases to elicit a mental response from the reader of listener, but the phrase itself is a bit silly.
Combat is always going to revolve around the fighter more than what he fights with. 98% of the fight is about the man, and 2% about his tools.

If you have a good tool, and you can use it when it counts to a high degree of proficiency, you are going to hold an advantage in most fights.

Let the advertisers and magazine writers do their job, but don’t let them sway you into thinking you can’t fight if something “better’ comes out for sale.

Any RELIABLE handgun is a good tool to fight with. More power is better than less, and more accuracy is better than less. More controllability is better than less.
Choose one that you like the feel of, that works well, and learn to use it WELL. Make it a point to become a VERY good marksman, a VERY competent gun handler, and someone that understands movement and communication when you are under fire.
Then you have a good “combat pistol”

More importantly, you can become a good fighter.

Guns don't kill, people do. Sometimes people kill when they should and not only when it's a crime. It's NOT the guns fault or responsibility in either case.

Last edited by Wyosmith; November 2, 2013 at 12:20 PM.
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Old November 2, 2013, 12:47 PM   #27
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Maybe someone can come up with a dumb spread sheet like the AR guys pass around.

Shouldn't the only pistols listed be used by Armed forces around the world, if we're talking combat approved for military service?

Or if we're going with just the true pistols carried by American military shouldn't those be the only one's we evaluate in this thread?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tive_service_2
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Old November 2, 2013, 01:00 PM   #28
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Personally, I mostly use the term "duty" or "service" class for guns intended for uniform holster wear by police & military.
Right, and that leads to two different classes of handguns.

Police weapons tend to be striker fired, simple, smaller, hicaps like Glocks and the modern plastic M&Ps and military guns are larger hammer fired deals like the mk23, M9, M45... which then gets us back to the main pistol families of striker vs. hammer and plastic vs. metal.

And honestly all manufacturers make gun families that are derived or directly service related--so the "ELITE TACTICAL SUPER BLACK OPS" P226 is no different than its more ordinary base model brethren in terms of form factor or internals--it's the same MIM parts, springs, mags and firing pins.

I have a Colt CCO, which is labeled as a "Law Officer's" model, even if I haven't seen too many cops carrying small 1911s these days. Is it a Combat Pistol, a carry pistol, or a police service pistol. It isn't butch like my HK45, but will outshoot it on any day and is every bit as reliable.
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Old November 2, 2013, 01:42 PM   #29
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I used the word "combat" simply to leave mouseguns, Desert Eagles and target pistols out of a thread that could prove to be huge.

This, like most of the objections posted don't really have anything to do with the question of coming up with guns that don't have a problem reputation.

Some of the nominations so far:
The 96D has the same locking block problems as the 92.
Early G21s had feeding problems.
Early Kahr polymer framed guns had a bunch of issues.
Walther P-38s had decocker related firing pin problems.
S&W M&P had a bunch of broken triggers.
Tanfoglio CZ clones are said to break slide lock pins.


Thanks to those who understood the OP!
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Old November 2, 2013, 01:57 PM   #30
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Anything man-made is subject to problems.
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Old November 2, 2013, 02:10 PM   #31
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Anything man-made is subject to problems.
Of course. But that isn't the question.

Which pistols are repeatedly subject to the same problem?


All pistols will have problems now and then, which much of the time will be the fault of external factors, like ammo and maintenance.

Problem pistols are those that have the same problem, regardless of who owns them and how they are being shot. If a bunch of SR9s are throwing their front sites off, that's a trend.

I don't know how much more plainly this can be explained.
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Old November 2, 2013, 02:32 PM   #32
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Re: Which combat pistols does everyone agree have no issues?

I don't know if this is a common problem but I have an FNH FNX-9 that had the safety lever go bad.

The gun has an ambidextrous safety but the design is ...not great. The safety lever used by right handers is quite solid and very well-secured to the axis point (where the actual safety mechanism is) but the lever for left handers is just holding onto the axis point (safety mechanism) by a small metal tension clip.

The lever failed when the clip lost tension and allowed the lever to spin freely without disengaging the safety. If the gun was being used in a defensive manner, it could've been a very unfortunate event. That was (thankfully) not the case and I got by using the other safety lever.

I called up FNH and they mailed out the clip-on lever free of charge. I popped it on and that was it. I do not carry this gun as a CCW for obvious reasons but I never got rid of it because I still like the gun very much. This all happened within two years of owning the gun and using it lightly.
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Old November 2, 2013, 03:39 PM   #33
campbed
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I think the term "combat pistol" is just fine and dandy if you want to use it.

My definition is simple enough: any pistol issued to soldiers by their country.
Combat = Military. Simple to me.

Got a different definition? God bless.

To answer your question: My SIG MK25 has gone bang 2750 times in a row without a single issue. The P226 platform has a rock solid rep from both Mil and LE users.
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Old November 2, 2013, 04:03 PM   #34
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Beretta M9
Sig P226
Walther P38
Browning Hi-Power

All the above in any order.
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Old November 2, 2013, 04:05 PM   #35
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Having a CZ and Kahr, they'd be way up my list.

You did say COMBAT pistols, so that opens up the list to add com-bloc service pistols to the discussion.

I'll vote for the VZ.52 made by CZ
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Old November 2, 2013, 04:31 PM   #36
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I don't like the term "combat pistol," it's just a BS marketing term to sell black guns with night sights, tacticool rails, extended mags and grabby grips at a premium to mall ninjas.
Oh crap.... my new CZ 75 SP-01 has all of those.....

As far as this thread is concerned, I will take "combat pistol' to mean a pistol either designed specifically for government/military contracts or were subsequently adopted for one regardless of the reason for its design...

That usually means that they will have passed stringent tests but have been made to a budget. That excludes custom 1911s, then. It also means that there are lots more in circulation. It follows that this will mean a greater incidence of problems too. It's just probability.

As 44AMP stated: people are more likely to punish than praise. I believe in marketing the stat they tout is a ratio of 9:5 when comparing who will pass on details of a negative consumer experience to those who will extoll the details of a positive experience.

This results in accounts of failures being artificially inflated as a proportion of the whole.

For me if people have bought a pistol, shot it a fair amount and kept it, or bought more from the same maker, that is as good an indicator as any: better than there being a lack of threads on one subject or another.

Plenty of people seem to keep and perhaps buy another Glock/CZ/HK/Sig etc...
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Old November 2, 2013, 05:08 PM   #37
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"All pistols are made for combat!" ?? Really? Its tough to tell, but I really hope this is sarcasm. Because if it isn't, you just lost a LOT of creditability.
I choose to take this as a layered compliment. First, it speaks to my apparent mastery of the deadpan delivery via the written word. Second, it hints at credibility. Thank you, and thank you.

@ the OP:
Which 'combat pistols' are agreed to be trouble free depends on which board you go to, LGS you shop at, etc. The most common answers circulating right now are probably: 1st-early 3rd Gen Glocks, 1911s, HK P30s, or PPQs. That doesn't reflect my personal opinions, just what I commonly see from board to board, shop to shop, and in recommendation from high profile trainers (Vickers, Costa, Haley, Howe, Lamb, Defoor, Panonne, Macnamara, Falla, etc).

As for my personal opinion... I don't have one. There are a number of pistols that I know are a virtual certainty to run great out of the box.

@ "combat pistols":
There are two things that people on both sides of this argument should understand.

1. Not all pistols are designed for combat. Some are designed strictly for recreation or competition, for example. While it is true that any pistol can be deployed against other people, the distinction for many people within the gun community is clearly the purpose behind the design.

2. Words carry the power that we (people as a whole) assign to them. Once a term becomes used in a particular way by the majority, the assigned value effectively changes. No matter how much anyone hates the term "combat pistol", the bottom line is that everyone in this thread understood that it was used in reference to pistols designed for service use.
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Old November 2, 2013, 09:01 PM   #38
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In the military, the pistol isn't considered a combat weapon. If the soldier is in combat, they use a rifle, or, are part of a crew served weapon.

In the Marines, nobody under the rank of Colonel carries a pistol into combat. Pretty common in a lot of combat arms units, and there are lots of reports of combat commanders back in WWII who carried Garands. Their point was that they didn't want to be distinguished by snipers as being in command by carrying a pistol.

Let's not forget one common saying the internet has spread, that a pistol is what you use to fight to your rifle.

So far, every military pistol I ever heard of eventually became a butt of jokes about it's inadequacies.
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Old November 2, 2013, 09:14 PM   #39
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I have a Bersa Thunder 9 UC Pro and I have never had a failure of any kind and it has around 2,000 rounds through it. It goes bang every time you pull the trigger.
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Old November 2, 2013, 09:41 PM   #40
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tirod,

While we all understand that it is rare for handguns to be used in combat, it does happen. I have 2 friends who have each had to use handguns to engage insurgents.
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Old November 2, 2013, 10:49 PM   #41
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We're looking for the guns no one even argues about there being a problem or not.
That gun does not exist. What fits one persons needs might not fit the next guys, what one person finds an issue might not be an issue for another. Some may own a particular pistol that has ran for thousands of rounds without a hiccup, some may have had a catastrophic failure in the first 100 rounds.
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Old November 2, 2013, 11:14 PM   #42
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They all have some issue. If any one was that much better than all the others there'd be no debate left. Even one that is perfect on paper might not be perfect for a particular shooter. An example of this would be the Glock grip angle that some shooters hate. Other things that look like issues might not be for some shooters. An example of this is how the Beretta 92 is considered by many to be too large/bulky, but for some shooters such as myself with large hands it fits like a glove.

That said, to me there does seem to be a core of pistols that most unbiased people will agree are at least very well-proven and satisfactory to a relative large user base. Off the top of my head, this would include, at a minimum:

Beretta's 92-series
Glock
Smith & Wesson's M&P series and 3rd Gen series
CZ's CZ-75 series
Sig's "Classic P Series"
Browning's Hi-Power
Browning's/Colt's 1911
HK's USP series, P2000 series, and P30 series
Walther's P99

This, of course, is a very subjective list, mine alone, and is undoubtedly missing some.
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Old November 3, 2013, 06:03 AM   #43
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1911's
Glocks
Springfield XD and XDms
Ruger P series
Sig 226
HK
Smith and Wesson MPs

the list could go on and on
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Old November 3, 2013, 07:15 AM   #44
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Issues

H&K (any USP and P2000 Models) and most Glock Models (Models 17,19,22,23 in Generation 3). Just my opinion but is based on owning these over the years and shooting them a lot. I've also had no problems with other plastic pistols but have not fired them as extensively as these two brands. I've never had a malfunction of any kind with these models. Perhaps I've just been lucky. As an aside, all I shoot is factory ammo. Seems reloads are some large degree of pistol failures.
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Old November 3, 2013, 09:10 AM   #45
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The two proven best combat pistols out there would be the Colt 1911A1 and the Makarov PM. Period.
Probably more negative stuff out there about 1911's than all others combined. I've had good ones and bad, but overall a 1911 would be the most distrusted guns I've ever owned.

Quote:
In the Marines, nobody under the rank of Colonel carries a pistol into combat.
My brother in law, since retired, was a Sargent in the USMC in 2005 and carried a Beretta in Iraq. I've seen photos of him wearing it in a drop holster on his thigh.

You aren't going to get a consensus. All of them have issues, you just pick the traits most important to you.
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Old November 3, 2013, 09:29 AM   #46
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Which combat pistols does everyone agree have no issues?

I know a Marine below Col in rank who carried a sidearm, and I would assume that the M45A1 order wasn't put in to decorate officers.
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Old November 3, 2013, 11:18 AM   #47
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If you are taking a pistol as your primary into combat you have made a grave tactical error.

That said I have a first generation Taurus 92 with 13,000+ rounds thru it with no problems. Several old 1911s several Glocks two sigs and a bunch of revolvers. Only the Taurus has been "perfect".

There is no perfect gun.
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Old November 3, 2013, 11:37 AM   #48
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When I think combat, I think of a pistol. For me, there are only two other types:

Competition pistols which are tricked out prima-donnas that must be given the right diet of ammunition to function

Collectible. Museum pieces or safe queens.

So, which type of defensive pistols work for me?

Rugers right out of the box. Ruger builds them tough and reliable.
CZ-75. Fits my hand the best after the P-08 or BHP.
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Old November 3, 2013, 12:04 PM   #49
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I can't speak for all Glocks, but I am still waiting for one of my Glocks to have a malfunction of ANY kind. I have a a Gen 2 Glock 22 that I purchased as a retired police officers gun that I have had for over 10 years now and thousands of round threw and a Gen 4 Glock 23 that has 500 rounds threw. Neither of them have ever had a malfunction. These are the only two guns I have that I have not sold or trade over the years.
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Old November 5, 2013, 06:27 AM   #50
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Choice

No semi auto comes to mind because there weakness are in the mags or a bad batch of ammo or more moving parts and so on so my choice for the list would be
S@w model 10
All metal work if art that keeps going even after 100 years
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