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Old November 2, 2013, 09:17 PM   #1
Conrad67
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Problem with a Colt 1860 Army Signature Series

Several months ago, I purchased a third generation Colt 1860 Army 'Signature Series' revolver.

I was told the revolver was fired a few times in the past, but the revolver does not show any signs of it. I intended to shoot the gun.

While trying to disassemble the barrel from the frame, I needed to use a rubber mallet to tap the loading lever. Then, I had to use the rubber mallet to reassemble the barrel onto the frame. I tried some grease and oil. But, the two pieces did not fit correctly and they were binding.

I called Colt, explained the situation, and shipped the revolver to them for service. They returned my revolver without any work being done.

They claim that my Signature Series Colt is "a replica and not a Colt".

I called Colt Customer Service for an explanation. I was told that the Signature Series were produced by a licensee of Colt. And, eventhough they are stamped Colt with a Colt serial number, Colt does not consider them 'real Colts' and therefore will not warrantee them.

I am disappointed with this 'pass the buck' attitude by Colt. Has this happened to anyone else? Has anyone else had a similar experience?

Now, I don't know if the gun is safe to shoot. If I would have known, I would have bought a new Uberti.
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Old November 2, 2013, 09:38 PM   #2
ivankerley
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so is the cylinder binding when its reassembled?
You said loading lever, did you mean the wedge needed to be tapped out?
On my Uberti 1860 its a snug fit and you have to tap the barrel on by hand to seat it all the way to the frame, but the cylinder shouldnt bind at all. The wedge shouldnt need to be hammered in to violently if at all either
Did it function before you broke it down? Anything binding then?
I believe Uberti had a hand in one of the generations of the colt runs, to what extent im not sure
sorry to hear of your experience, best of luck
Gene
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Old November 2, 2013, 10:44 PM   #3
freedom475
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Yep ...Series Colts are 100% Uberti made revolvers...you can get the same exact thing from Cimarron, Buffalo Arms, and Cabelas for less than 1/3 the cost...just no horse'y

They just assembled them in the states and added $500-$1200 to there pockets for the little horse icon By assembling them in the states the frames did not require nor receive the eurpean proof house stamps.
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Old November 3, 2013, 01:46 AM   #4
Hawg
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Yep ...Series Colts are 100% Uberti made revolvers...
Not exactly. The second gens were assembled and finished by Colt in the Colt factory from forgings supplied by Uberti. The third gens were assembled and finished by the Colt Black Powder Arms Co in the old Iver Johnson factory which had no affiliation with Colt other than to purchase the license to make them. They were made from forgings supplied by Uberti and some of the small parts were made here. Colt warranted/repaired and will letter the second gens but not the third since they had no part in the manufacture of them.
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Old November 3, 2013, 07:15 AM   #5
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Hawg

You are an absolute wealth of information!



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Old November 3, 2013, 09:01 AM   #6
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Yeah Birch, unfortunately 97.5% of it is trivial BS nobody gives a rip about.
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Old November 3, 2013, 09:56 AM   #7
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I own a 51 Navy with Address Saml Colt New York City on the barrel with no proof marks visible and a nickeled or silver grip frame. I sent this shooter to have the cylinder pin, arbor?, fixed to a gunsmith who did a cracker jack job, but lost one of the frame/barrel pins. While trying to find a new pin on line I was advised that the gun was made by Armi San Marcos, and I would have to make a pin because the company folded some years ago. This info came from the parts company that is all initials that I can't remember.
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Old November 3, 2013, 09:58 AM   #8
salvadore
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Oops, I forgot, I've had the revolver for like 20 years and when I purchased it I was told it was made by Colt.
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Old November 3, 2013, 10:20 AM   #9
Hawg
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Uberti subcontracted ASM to supply barrels for the second gens and ASM got stuck with a lot of them when production ceased. ASM used them on their own guns and Colt sued them.
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Old November 3, 2013, 12:51 PM   #10
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Colt Black Powder Arms Co was owned by Lou Imperato who went on to found Henry Repeating Arms. The Henry .22 rifle is a reworked Emma that he had acquired the rights to through his ownership of Iver Johnson. Another piece of trivia that 97% of people could care less about. You could make the argument that 3rd generation Colt BP guns are actually Henry's.
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Old November 3, 2013, 11:17 PM   #11
Conrad67
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Gentlemen,

Thank you for your input. Perhaps I am just venting a little, but humor me. I am both frustrated and disappointed.

Actually, a lot of force is required to separate the barrel from the frame and vis-versa. When the barrel assembly tries to ride the pins on the bottom of the water table, a missalignment causes the cylinder rod to flex down. It is though my barrel assembly needs an extra 1mm of space to align the table pins and the cylinder pin.

The factory cylinder does not bind, but I tried to install a Howell conversion cylinder (which is fraction larger) and it would not even turn because of binding.

Howell Conversions (who have been spectacular) said that it was an original machining issue and it could not be fixed.

I feel that Colt has passed the buck. Am I right? Even if it was produced by a licensee, it has a Colt serial number and the Colt name on it. I feel that Colt has some responsibility.

Installing the wedge is the least of my worries. The wedge is not the problem.

At this point, I don't know if the gun is okay to shoot cap-and-ball blackpowder. I know it can't shoot with the Howell conversion cylinder.

Thanks.
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Old November 4, 2013, 05:25 AM   #12
Hawg
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Quote:
I feel that Colt has passed the buck. Am I right? Even if it was produced by a licensee, it has a Colt serial number and the Colt name on it. I feel that Colt has some responsibility.
Not in my opinion.
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Old November 4, 2013, 12:53 PM   #13
SpareMag
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Quote:


Quote:
I feel that Colt has passed the buck. Am I right? Even if it was produced by a licensee, it has a Colt serial number and the Colt name on it. I feel that Colt has some responsibility.

<<<<<<<>>>>>
Not in my opinion.
Hawg,

I am curious to know why you don't think Colt has responsibility for a Colt-branded product?

In the modern era, one cpuld say that Walther shares no obligation for the P22 because it is made by Umarex.

Now, just to prove I am willing to contradict myself, Walther DOES disavow any responsibility for Smith PPKs, which were made under license by Smith...
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Old November 4, 2013, 01:31 PM   #14
ivankerley
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Quote:
Actually, a lot of force is required to separate the barrel from the frame and vis-versa. When the barrel assembly tries to ride the pins on the bottom of the water table, a missalignment causes the cylinder rod to flex down. It is though my barrel assembly needs an extra 1mm of space to align the table pins and the cylinder pin.
wow, so the arbor flexes down? thats not the usual Uberti short arbor syndrome... Im new to all this wish i could help more
Gene
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Old November 4, 2013, 02:00 PM   #15
Rigmarol
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I have two Sig series 2nd Gen Colt Dragoons.
I was fully aware of the sig series not being true Colts well before I bought them but want my Pony with no Italian marks. Vanity on my part pure and simple.

I was able to hand both an Italian clone and the sig siries side by side and I have to say there was a world if difference in the feel when operating the works. The sig series was far superior (in this comparison) and I payed about $150 more for and didn't regret it.

I also have a "tight" frame to barrel fit. When I take it down after about 50 shots fired, I have to slap my hand on the loading lever (between cylinders) to separate the barrel from the frame. I also bring along a small rubber mallet to drive the wedge out and back in. Not a lot of force is needed for either, it's just handy.

After cleaning, the barrel comes off far easier and no slapping is required.

I'm thinking, you got a a piece that was hardly fired or broke down. If the gun goes together and operates you should be fine. If the cylinder gap goes away when you cock the gun (no light or very little when views sideways) it should be good to go.

If you can post of picture of your consern about the cylinder or arbor issue we could give you some better advice.

Personally, I love both of my Signature Series (fake) Colts just fine. And I shoot the heck out of them regularly.

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Old November 4, 2013, 06:22 PM   #16
Hawg
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Quote:
Hawg,

I am curious to know why you don't think Colt has responsibility for a Colt-branded product?
They didn't do anything but sell the right to use their name and logo. Its not like they went out looking for somebody to make guns for them.
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Old November 4, 2013, 07:05 PM   #17
maillemaker
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They didn't do anything but sell the right to use their name and logo. Its not like they went out looking for somebody to make guns for them.
I see what you are saying, but when you put your name on something, it kind of puts your reputation behind it, and especially if you are profiting from it, one might expect them to support the product.

Steve
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Old November 4, 2013, 09:16 PM   #18
PetahW
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.

In your opinion, Steve - To which you are fully permitted to have.

I'm of the same opinion as Hawg.



.

Last edited by PetahW; November 4, 2013 at 09:33 PM.
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Old November 4, 2013, 09:19 PM   #19
SpareMag
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They didn't do anything but sell the right to use their name and logo. Its not like they went out looking for somebody to make guns for them.
Hmmm....I see your point, but to the casual user, if one sees a Colt logo on a gun, it is reasonable to assume that it was mfg by Colt, or at least FOR Colt.

The idea that Colt would sell their name and logo with no concern or involvement doesn't make sense to me.
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Old November 5, 2013, 05:14 AM   #20
Hawg
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Would you have expected Colt to repair/warranty the Sistemas? Same thing except the Sistemas were made on Colt equipment.
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Old November 5, 2013, 07:06 AM   #21
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Hmmm....I see your point, but to the casual user, if one sees a Colt logo on a gun, it is reasonable to assume that it was mfg by Colt, or at least FOR Colt.
The "Colt Black Powder" guns were neither made BY or FOR Colt. They were produced by Lou Imperato (Iver Johnson) who paid Colt for the right to stamp the word "Colt" on his guns which were made with Uberti parts. Colt had nothing to do with the production, promotion or sale of these guns. At all. They are not Colt revolvers. They are highly finished Uberti revolvers produced by Iver Johnson. So no, IMHO Colt bears NO responsibility for these guns.

Quote:
The idea that Colt would sell their name and logo with no concern or involvement doesn't make sense to me.
Why? Look at all the cheap junk that is produced with the Colt logo on it. Key chains, metal signs, Zippo lighters, tee shirts, ball caps. You name it, all emblazoned with the holy "COLT" logo. And most of it found in cheap mail order catalogs. Do you think Colt has any responsibility for that stuff? Just because you license your name to another company doesn't mean the product they make will be your responsibility or even up to your standards. It just means that you get paid for the use of your name.

Last edited by MJN77; November 5, 2013 at 04:38 PM.
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Old November 5, 2013, 08:15 AM   #22
ivankerley
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new guy question, how far back would one expect a company to do warranty work? I mean if i called colt with a gun from early 1900's for repair could/would they be able to do anything? I would think it would be impossible for them to help me. dunno?
wonder if the Imperato 'Colts" came with info stating warranty info, etc.
Gene
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Old November 5, 2013, 06:24 PM   #23
Hawg
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new guy question, how far back would one expect a company to do warranty work? I mean if i called colt with a gun from early 1900's for repair could/would they be able to do anything?
Nope, they won't touch it. I dunno how far back they will go but its not too terribly far.

Quote:
wonder if the Imperato 'Colts" came with info stating warranty info, etc.
As a matter of fact they got hold of a Colt users manual and copied it verbatim including the Colt warranty information. Colt put out disclaimers in several publications including Guns & Ammo magazine plainly stating they were not Colt's and they would not work on them under any circumstance.
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Old November 5, 2013, 07:56 PM   #24
ivankerley
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As a matter of fact they got hold of a Colt users manual and copied it verbatim including the Colt warranty information. Colt put out disclaimers in several publications including Guns & Ammo magazine plainly stating they were not Colt's and they would not work on them under any circumstance.
Thats exactly what i was driving at! wow! no wonder colt wont touch 'em
Stinks for people like the OP that bought one on the secondary market be even worse if youd have bought one brand new thinking it was an honest colt, before word got out what was goin on.
kinda makes me a little sad as i like my Henry rifle quite a bit, great little lever gun, same guy did this to people buying a "colt". But at least I knew about henry before i got one
Gene
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Old November 5, 2013, 10:34 PM   #25
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I've said it before - I have two Signature Series Colts, both 1861 .36 Navy. I have never seen or handled a better made gun than either of these. Much better than Italian, Belgian or Spanish guns, and even the 2nd Generations I've seen and handled. Fit, finish, action, quality...top notch.
Maybe I just got lucky.
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