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Old September 28, 2013, 09:48 PM   #51
rickyrick
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I roam Fisher, Nolan and Taylor counties.... You got me lol
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Old September 28, 2013, 10:20 PM   #52
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I know 'em well. My shooting partner is from Sweetwater and I have a brother that lives there. I was married there and where our daughter was born.
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Old October 31, 2013, 08:39 AM   #53
Derbel McDillet
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There can be several reasons why your pistol didn’t fire when you pressed the trigger:
  • Defective cartridge
  • Empty chamber (e.g., you forgot to chamber a round or your magazine became unseated)
  • Feeding stoppage
  • Stovepipe
  • Slide inadvertently locked open (e.g., your grip is compromised and you inadvertently engaged the slide lock)
Pressing the trigger a second time MAY solve only one of those problems.

Whereas Tap, Rack is a single immediate action that solves ANY of those problems.

This is why Tap, Rack is the preferred non-diagnostic immediate action anytime the pistol doesn’t fire when the trigger is pressed.

Last edited by Derbel McDillet; October 31, 2013 at 09:05 AM.
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Old October 31, 2013, 09:35 AM   #54
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I didn't feel like I had anything to contribute the first time around, but I'd like to point one thing out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derbel McDillet
There can be several reasons why your pistol didn’t fire when you pressed the trigger:
  • Defective cartridge
  • Empty chamber (e.g., you forgot to chamber a round or your magazine became unseated)
  • Feeding stoppage
  • Stovepipe
  • Slide inadvertently locked open (e.g., your grip is compromised and you inadvertently engaged the slide lock)
You forgot one.
  • The pistol will drop the hammer when the trigger is pulled with the safety engaged (e.g. Walther P22 and PK380, many Mauser HSc variants), and you just pulled the trigger with the pistol on-safe.
If this is the case, the standard Tap-Rack-Bang method may result in the ejection of perfectly good live ammunition onto the ground, only to have the problem reoccur.

FWIW this is the reason that I've frequently advised against carrying such pistols for defensive purposes.
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Old October 31, 2013, 07:28 PM   #55
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Good point.

I still TRB anything that slides.
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Old November 1, 2013, 10:15 AM   #56
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Lot's of opinions here....here's Front Sight Institutes' answer...failure to fire, either with or without the telltale click of the hammer falling:
Maintain your point in stance, tap the magazine bottom to ensure it is seated, then rack the slide while tipping the gun to the right to help ejection of the chambered (or not) round. No mention of trying to get a defective round to fire a 2nd time, as there is little time to spare.
I concur...forget about the problem round and get on with business. This applies to Glocks, Sigs, and 1911's with which I'm familiar. If there other types that have different operating systems, then procedure would have to be modified to accommodate said differences. But in any event, re-trying a known failure would not be my choice.

Rod
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Old November 1, 2013, 11:20 AM   #57
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All of the "drills" in the world will do a victim no good if the worse case event occurs ie; unable to perform said drill or manipulate your pistol, (for whatever reason). If your one chance at survival is to try again, to pull that trigger... would you? If your firearm is incapable of this, then you are in deep kimchi. If you have it, you may have a chance. Even a low chance is at least a chance.

Why would someone not want one more ability, one more way to survive. I don't get the "more is useless" argument. Makes no sense.
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Old November 1, 2013, 11:25 AM   #58
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PSP, When time is of the essence, I hope you waste none of it trying to fire a dud.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is not rational.
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Old November 1, 2013, 02:31 PM   #59
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Quote:
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is not rational
That's where your experience and my experience differ. The majority of lightstruck rounds I've encountered fired with another strike. However, that wasn't my point. What do you expect to happen to your gun when it goes click and you are unable to fix it because you're physically prevented from doing so. Furthermore, why saddle yourself with a gun that has X number of features, but scoff at one with X+1 features. Makes no sense. You make the presumption that you have time to do what you want to fix a gun. You may not. You train for the best case. I train for the worst.

If you are a one armed man, do you want a normal opening knife or an automatic opener?
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Old November 1, 2013, 02:37 PM   #60
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I can TRB with one hand ....can't you?
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Old November 1, 2013, 03:22 PM   #61
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Quote:
...and you are unable to fix it because you're physically prevented from doing so
Then what? I'm a X+1 guy, that's all. I want every advantage. If you don't, that's your business.
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Old November 1, 2013, 03:23 PM   #62
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I mostly use 'em like toys but they ain't

My EAA Witnesses maintain their stock DA/SA triggers due to their "second strike" capability.
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Old November 1, 2013, 03:31 PM   #63
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If I am physically prevented from clearing the gun and it won't fire, then it becomes a bludgeon, though if they have me prevented from clearing it in the first place ...... then it's game on..... time for other measures.

I seriously doubt that if the stock hammer spring on my gun did not set the primer off, a second whack at it would not do it either. Any other form of stoppage won't be fixed by pulling the trigger a second time ...... just wasted time.
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Old November 1, 2013, 03:37 PM   #64
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My splits never exceed .5 seconds, even at 50 yds...... that "extra" pull, that IME may just ignite that cartridge, takes so little time I've retained its capability.

But I ain't everyone.
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Old November 1, 2013, 03:58 PM   #65
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Actually, it's Tap, Rack, Assess.
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Old November 1, 2013, 04:06 PM   #66
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fixes 'em all but the FUBAR

Actually, it's:

-drop mag
-rack slide
-insert (fresh) mag
-rack slide
-resume firing
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Old November 2, 2013, 06:29 PM   #67
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Why would you drop the mag (unless you're talking about a double feed)?
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Old November 3, 2013, 01:02 AM   #68
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Magazine problems are a very common cause of jams/malfunctions. Some trainers advocate carrying a spare magazine with ammunition more as a remedial measure than as a source of additional ammunition.
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Old November 3, 2013, 04:56 AM   #69
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I agree with tap, rack, bang.

If clickey makes no bangy, then go into battle drill. It takes less time to think about what is possibly wrong, and mis-diagnose, than to just tap, rack, bang.

Some may argue that you're wasting a possibly usable bullet. But I would argue that the odds of you needing that single bullet, when you should have ample rounds in your 1 or 2 mags, is slim. I'm more envisioning a situation where every second is precious and each breath could be your last.

In the military we have a saying. "Train how you fight, and fight how you train." If you train yourself on the concept of trying to pull the trigger again, well that is bad practice to train your muscle memory wrong for some guns. And tap, rack, bang really works for all semi-autos. If my M4 fails to fire, it's basically the same drill...

Tap, rack, bang resolves every problem except a squib. And if you have a squib at that critical time, well a double strike wasn't going to resolve it and you're just going to have a really bad day any way you slice it.
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Last edited by leadcounsel; November 3, 2013 at 05:04 AM.
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Old November 3, 2013, 06:42 AM   #70
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"tap rack boing" does not fix oft-found feed issues; the 'rack' can often add to the issue, creating a true "issue".
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Old November 3, 2013, 05:04 PM   #71
Derbel McDillet
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When the pistol fails to fire:

1. Perform Tap, Roll & Rack, Recover.
2. If Tap, Roll & Rack, Recover fails to get the pistol running then:
3. Attempt to perform a Combat Reload.
4. If you can't insert the fresh magazine into the pistol then:
5. You put the spare magazine between your ring & pinky finger, lock the slide open, rip the "depleted" magazine from the pistol, cycle the slide three times and then finish the Combat Reload.

I always operate the slide the same way - I retract and release it using the overhand method. This simplifies OODA Loop decision-making. It uses the same movements for every problem. I don't touch the slide lock unless I want to lock the slide open to unload the pistol or to clear a doublefeed - that's it.

I don't attempt to diagnose that I've fired the gun to slide lock because there are failures that will look and feel like the slide is locked open (stovepipe, in-line stovepipe, failure to feed, and doublefeed. In addition clearing a classic stovepipe using "tap/rack" will frequently induce a doublefeed). When you try to diagnose what caused a stoppage then you aren't going to be as quick in getting the gun back up and running because you're Observing-Orienting-Deciding-Acting instead of performing non-diagnostic Observe-Act immediate actions.

Tap-rack takes about a second to perform. It's performed automatically anytime the pistol does not fire when you press the trigger.

If tap-rack fails to get the pistol running then, unless you're in a safe position, you should be reacting/moving to keep from being shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, etc., before you attempt a Combat Reload. Reacting to danger under these circumstances offsets any perceived advantage in "speed".

If you train to immediately perform a Combat Reload when you "see" that your slide appears locked open then you become preoccupied in diagnosing and reacting to your gun at the expense of reacting to the danger. If you've incorrectly "observed & oriented" and the problem is not an empty magazine then your OODA Loop resets and you have to decide what to do next while you're still exposed to danger.

Whereas if Tap-Rack fails to get the gun running then you simply progress to the next decision - react/move or Combat Reload.

I also load & unload my pistol using the same movements that I use to clear stoppages. The movements I use to load & unload are common to the movements I use to clear stoppages. I use the tasks of load & unloading as a training opportunity to exercise the same movements I use to clear stoppages. This allows me to leverage economy of motion.

When I load I put the slide into battery*, seat the magazine, and roll & rack. I then perform a Tactical Reload, holster my pistol, top off the magazine I removed during the Tactical Reload and stow it in my carrier. (*I put the slide into battery to condition me to apply the extra effort required to seat the magazine after I clear a doublefeed - a situation in which the slide will be in battery after I clear it.)

When I unload I remove the magazine; place it between the ring & pinky fingers of my firing hand; roll, rack & lock open the slide (just as I do to clear a doublefeed).

---------------

What if the slide lock disengages and the slide unexpectedly goes into battery after seating a magazine when performing a Combat Reload? Simple - I just drive-on and Roll & Rack as I normally do. It may cost me a cartridge but it is a positive measure to ensure the pistol is ready to fire when I need it. It eliminates OODA Loop reset hesitation and decision-making caused by an unexpected event, and I can get back into the fight quicker.

After "Tap", I simultaneously "Roll" the pistol to the right about 90-degrees at the same time I "Rack". This allows me to use centifugal force and gravity to help clear the action. When I "Rack" I also simultaneously retract the slide with my support hand and push forcibly forward with my firing hand - as if I'm trying to rip the slide off the frame. When the slide reaches its rearmost travel and stops my support hand just slips off.

---------------

Tap, Roll & Rack takes about a second to perform. It clears the most common stoppages. You should train so that you instantly perform Tap, Roll & Rack as a conditioned response if the pistol doesn't fire when you press the trigger. Diagnosing that you should first attempt a Combat Reload slows you down and increases your vulnerability. Diagnostic techniques suck your attention into trying to solve the "internal" gun problem at the expense of diverting your attention from the more important "external" tactical problem. If you're focused on the gun then you're not paying attention to the danger. Immediately performing Tap, Roll & Rack does not draw your attention into the gun. It's performed automatically. If it doesn't get the gun running, then you're free to immediately do what you have to do next to keep from being harmed and defer the Combat Reload until time and conditions permit, if necessary. Whereas if you attempt to perform a Combat Reload first - you're "down" and distracted for a longer amount of time - especially if you misdiagnose the problem and get sucked into fixing your pistol while one hand is holding a jammed gun and the other is holding a magazine.

Physical fatigue and injuries increase the probability of experiencing a stoppage during a fight.

-------------------

INSERTING STOPPAGES FOR TRAINING
At the range:

I randomly load a dummy cartridge in every magazine to thoroughly ingrain "Tap, Rack" manipulations when the pistol doesn't fire after I press the trigger. I also don’t load my magazines to full capacity (usually 5-7 rounds) when I’m training so I can maximize the opportunity to exercise my manipulation skills.

I routinely insert a doublefeed stoppage, which is the most time consuming to clear. I place a fired case in the chamber, seat a magazine, retract and release the slide to put it into "battery". This jams the top cartridge in the magazine into the head of the chambered case. I "simulate" firing the pistol by pressing the trigger. When the pistol doesn't fire I perform all the nondiagnostic immediate actions I described above.

I also chamber a cartridge, holster my pistol and then press the magazine release to unseat the magazine. I then draw my pistol and press the trigger. The pistol fires but fails to strip and chamber a cartridge from the magazine when the slide cycles, producing a "one shot wonder". When it doesn't fire I immediately perform "Tap, Rack" to get the gun running again.

In addition I'll insert a stovepipe or in-line stovepipe stoppage with an empty case and perform "Tap, Rack" when the pistol doesn't fire. Sometimes this produces a double-feed.

When the slide locks open on an empty magazine I still perform "Tap, Rack" first, attempt to fire again, and then progress to a Combat Reload. Although I may feel a difference in how much the slide retracts when I perform "Tap, Rack" as my primary immediate action, I don't know if the problem is caused by an empty magazine, an in-line stovepipe, a doublefeed, or an unusual feed/extract failure as they all feel about the same. However it simply doesn't matter what the problem is - I just progress through my immediate actions until I clear the stoppage. I maintain my tempo of non-diagnostic manipulations - and this practice is where my quickness in clearing stoppages comes from. I just drive-on - without skipping a beat.

At home:

I do the same things except ONLY with dummy cartridges. I don't need to go to the range to exercise and maintain my manipulation skills.
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