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Old November 1, 2013, 01:06 AM   #26
RX-79G
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Stormy,

How can you worry about bystanders and not worry about over penetration??? What do you think happens when the bullet exits at high speed?

I really don't think you're looking at any of this right. ALL 9mm FMJ over penetrates regardless of weight or hitting bone. Anything you can do to lower penetration makes bystanders safer and may increase wounding if the bullet yaws in flesh.
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Old November 1, 2013, 03:39 AM   #27
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You do reload don't you? You could load your own if you needed.
I do reload, but I only do so for target rounds.

As yet, I don't have 9mm dies, and, on a more judicial note, I don't know how using reloads would be viewed by courts if they were ever used in an SD/HD setting.

In other words, I'd like to make a good ammo choice, practise getting my gun out as quickly as possible, but beyond that, I'm not going to worry too much: once I have my gun in hand, there is a room for all of us to sit tight in with a view all the way down the hall.
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Old November 1, 2013, 10:02 AM   #28
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Pond, James Pond - I have tried to determine the best choice in 9mm fmj also, so always note threads like this. I tend to prefer heavy-for-caliber loads but at the moment would opt for 115 grain standard pressure fmj in 9mm precisely because it penetrates a bit less than the heavy bullets and the plus p loadings. From what I can determine, the differences are not great, however. Around here, the 115 grain loadings have the added advantage of being far more common and available.
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Old November 1, 2013, 02:22 PM   #29
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<<<Stormy,

How can you worry about bystanders and not worry about over penetration??? What do you think happens when the bullet exits at high speed?>>>

I don't think bullets exiting people and injuring bystanders is a problem. I've never heard or read or this happening. I'm sure it has happened, but not enough to give a statistic.

What I have heard of happening (mainly from police shootings) is bystanders being shot because the target was missed completely.

The reason you don't shoot at a target in a crowd of people is not a fear of the bullet hitting the target, exiting the target, and hitting a bystander behind the target. You don't fire at your target in a crowd of people for fear of missing your target and hitting a bystander.
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Old November 1, 2013, 02:43 PM   #30
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You don't fire at your target in a crowd of people for fear of missing your target and hitting a bystander.
It may not happen as often, but I still think it is a legitimate consideration: rule 4 "Be aware of your target and what lies behind it" and all that.

To put this into perspective, I wouldn't want to be behind the targeted individual anymore than I'd like being beside them....

Going back to what some have said about 124gr... I have about 300 of those and could put some through the gun too. I think I will shoot all 30 remaining subsonics. It is all I have. If it cycles well, and is accurate as well as controllable, I can go back and buy some more. If the 124grs perform as well, I can also consider those as I will always have more of them available to me.

If penetration with FMJ really is not that big a worry with 9mm, then perhaps I should stop over analysing as the bullet choice part of the equation has been done for me...
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Old November 1, 2013, 03:21 PM   #31
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Any quality 115g or 124g (my preference) FMJ will suffice. Skip the heavies.
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Old November 1, 2013, 06:44 PM   #32
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Any quality 115g or 124g (my preference) FMJ will suffice. Skip the heavies.
As has always been the case, I appreciate your input, but I do wish you would try being a bit more concise in future!!
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Old November 1, 2013, 07:28 PM   #33
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If you go the heavy and slow route, look into lead flat point or semi-wad cutters. .....
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Old November 2, 2013, 02:48 AM   #34
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Pond, I really don't think there will be much difference in terminal effectiveness between 115,124,147,158,etc. ball 9MM ammo. For SD/HD, the main thing to me would be reliable function. That being said, for the last ~15 years, my most used factory practice and plinking ammo has been the Winchester Q4318 124 grain NATO ball ammo. I have used literally thousands of rounds of this in multiple 9MM pistols, revolvers and Marlin carbines. Reliabilty has been excellent, in fact, I cannot recall a single malfuction in any of my guns while using the NATO ammo. It is sealed at the case mouth and the primer is sealed and crimped. I suspect it would be very weather resistant. I have chronographed the NATO ammo in quite a few different guns, and it is loaded a little warmer than most of our standard U.S. SAAMI spec. ammo of the same weight. I would think similar European, etc. ammo would be available to you if actual NATO 9MM is not...ymmv
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Old November 2, 2013, 02:57 AM   #35
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I don't think bullets exiting people and injuring bystanders is a problem. I've never heard or read or this happening. I'm sure it has happened, but not enough to give a statistic.
That's probably because US police agencies (who have the majority of this sort of incident to extract stats from) use hollowpoints.

The problem with a statistical discussion of bullet performance in actual shootings is that FMJ is just not in use in civilian shoot outs anywhere. Sure, the military uses them, but they use the standard NATO ammo, not the flavor of the week ammo LEOs are constantly playing with.

The performance of heavy FMJs is pretty much theoretical, and even in theory, they would poke clean holes and leave very little energy in the target.
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Old November 2, 2013, 06:15 AM   #36
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concise; not 'detailed'

I suggest those lighter weights for their proven reliable function, POA = POI moreso than the 158s, and lower cost.
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Old November 2, 2013, 06:58 AM   #37
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I would say most 9mm rounds that are reliable in your firearm would do the job. I assume that if it takes around 15 seconds to get the firearm that it has to be locked in a safe unless cleaning maintenance or going to the range. Are you allowed to carry the firearm for self defence. ?

Quote:
The performance of heavy FMJs is pretty much theoretical, and even in theory, they would poke clean holes and leave very little energy in the target.
Its the hole that kills. There is not enough energy in most handgun ammo to make any difference if it stops in the target or goes through it. Penetration is the most important factor.

Last edited by manta49; November 2, 2013 at 07:03 AM.
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Old November 2, 2013, 01:14 PM   #38
Pond, James Pond
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Quote:
concise; not 'detailed'
In my attempt at being a smart-so'n'so, I should have requested you be less verbose, rather than more concise!

Still, based on what you and others have said, I am leaning toward going back to 124grs. That is after all what I practise with most, for competition and for competence.

Quote:
Are you allowed to carry the firearm for self defence?
Well, it goes like this over here: you can carry concealed, but if you are not carrying or transporting, all guns should be locked away with ammo stored separately. Separately can mean in a locked compartment of the same gun cabinet.

The stupid bit is that, if I only have one gun, I can just hide it... Two guns or more and you have to shell out on a gun cabinet. And you can't store more than the cabinet is certified to hold and you can't have more than one cabinet. (Whilst quite a few bits of the law are a bit weird, that last bit is reaaaaaaally dumb, IMO). If that were not the case, I'd have a long arm cabinet and a small box cabinet for my hand guns... Life would be much simpler that way....

I could leave the gun on my bedside table, but my wife would not tolerate that. This is my hobby and she supports my interest, but would rather be spared exposure. So, out of respect for her views, I do my gunny stuff when she is not around/up. Therefore a sizeable 9mm fullsize pistol next to my alarm clock would not go down well.

As such it stays locked away. A baby starting to crawl around and later exploring the house, also makes for a locked gun scenario.

Those fifteen seconds (call it 20 if I've just woken up) would be to get out of bed, stagger to the cabinet, open it, grab the SP-01, get a loaded mag out, load it, rack the slide and have the gun out in a shooting stance....
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Old November 3, 2013, 12:39 PM   #39
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Do you have a problem with courts being so anti-gun or self defense that they would go after the gun owner who used a gun in self defense, even if they were following all laws and regulations?

In the US certain areas have this problem, areas that have a large population who dislike guns. A person can shoot an armed intruder and still face a hard time in court. Other areas tend to not have this issue, areas where gun ownership is more common usually. Sometimes factors pop up that make a case a bigger deal than it should be, hot button issues like race for example.

Despite the fact that some areas are anti gun, the worry over using reloads rather than factory store bought loads is more theoretical than a demonstrated problem.

You just have to look at the court system you have and its history.
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Old November 3, 2013, 03:55 PM   #40
Pond, James Pond
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Do you have a problem with courts being so anti-gun or self defense that they would go after the gun owner who used a gun in self defense, even if they were following all laws and regulations?
Truth is I don't know. Reloading here is mostly a sports shooting or hunting pursuit and so I don't think there is a precedent that has been set.

The country is not "anti-gun", but then nor is it pro-. The law allows gun ownership and probably about 7% of the population own an SD licence. More hunt. Hard to say. But I wouldn't want to test the courts' attitude to SD shootings. ON the whole, there are few crimes involving guns. There have been some armed robberies and a case where a policeman was shot by a known gun owner that they had been set to question/arrest. That was national news.

Fact is, I'm a guest, not a citizen. I want to be prepared for unpleasant possibilities, but I don't want to do anything that might land me in unnecessary do-do with the local judiciary.

The unpleasant possibilities are extremely unlikely, though.. so that is nice!
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Old November 4, 2013, 07:18 PM   #41
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Might want to do some research... maybe talk to someone at the courthouse. If you can talk to the prosecutor or other government representative equivalent in your area, I would. Get a feel for his opinions on self defense situations.

Guest? Not natural born... married into it? I can see how a lack of familiarity may be present.
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