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Old November 1, 2013, 07:47 AM   #51
jimbob86
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I have seen well seasoned 1911 shooters occasionally forget to swipe the safety off...
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Either they are not as well seasoned as they are thought to be, or have adulterated their training, and thus their muscle memory, with foreign systems.
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Or they have just had an experience unlike any they have ever had before...


Unlikely-I'm doubting that they did not forget the safety swipe a time or three when they started ..... if they forgot, then they were not really "well seasoned", were they? ..... or went the other route I mentioned, and tossed some foreign substance into the mix ...... and are shocked when at SHOOTSHOOTSHOOT time they don't get the results they thought they would. Ask Tex Graber about mixing systems .....
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Old November 1, 2013, 07:50 AM   #52
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You can second guess all you want. I am simply reporting what I have seen on more than one occasion.
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Old November 1, 2013, 08:10 AM   #53
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You can second guess all you want. I am simply reporting what I have seen on more than one occasion.
....

But were these guys "well seasoned" in the sense that they were well trained, and drilled on the 1911 often and to the exclusion of other systems, or were they "well seasoned" in the sense that they had shot 1911's for a long time, decades maybe, and trained with a variety of guns currently?

"Muscle memory" is fast, but not very smart. It is the proverbial "knee-jerk reaction" and if there is anything to think about, there will be a problem. The thinking gets done beforehand, when there is time- Condition Orange-
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Old November 1, 2013, 08:10 AM   #54
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OP here

I'm getting a lot of good posts.

However I do need to disagree with a couple of statements.

One being the DA/SA transition thing i really need to disagree for any experienced gun user in my mind should not be a problem at all.
When I went from carrying a 1911 to my p220 my biggest problem was trying not to ride the slide release with my thumb, because thats right where the safety is on a 1911. Even that only took one range trip to correct. And the trigger is very smooth so the difference is hardly even noticed after the first 100 rds ex specially when you don't think about it.

The next thing is the safety on a 1911 is one of those things that become so automatic I would not even think of it so forgetting that again in my mind you would need to be a novice with 1911's. And then it should only be a very short term issue.

The next thing a comment was made that SEALS, coast guard, FBI, NCIS etc use sigs this is true. Now the comment to that was made I think the reason the SEALS use sigs is because it is there secondary/backup weapon in part this is true and the rest of the comment was because it has a high capacity. This I need to entirely disagree with there are plenty of guns that hold a lot of rds so the elite groups are using sigs because they are very good dependable guns, not for the capacity. The us Marshal service in some branches use the p220 9rds, why because they work.
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Old November 1, 2013, 08:14 AM   #55
thedudeabides
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This ridiculous allegation doesn't go very far in establishing your credibility in my mind. In my experience, SIG 1911 pistols are no more or less reliable and accurate as any other equivalent Model 1911 pistol that I've shot-and I've shot more than my fair share of them over the past several decades.
Sig has had a run of bad 1911s lately, with overly tight chamber dimensions that result in FTRTFB, chipping 'kote jobs on their Scorpions, and other QC problems. The Sig forums on certain 1911 web sites are full of complaints, almost as much as Kimber.

I have also owned and shot 1911s of every flavor for about 20 years, and honestly my 1911 Scorpion left me feeling very lacking, since it had the tight chamber, chipping 'kote, AND misaligned sights from the factory. Couple the fact that Sig wants to make a better mousetrap with the external extractor and their squared off slide doesn't fit any of my 1911 holsters meant the Sig was sold not long after I finally managed to get Sig to fix it.

I have had problems with other 1911s, but most have been very minor, easy to fix, and no gun had several large glaring issues that should have been addressed at the factory.

I have owned and shot several Sigs. I think they should stick to making ONLY the P220, P226, and P229 guns--since that is the only product line they can reliably make without messing up. Sig needs to narrow their product line, since they think they can do everything well. They can't. Or just make a solid 1911 design with a proper slide, extractor, and internals. No one will fault them for starting over.
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Old November 1, 2013, 08:45 AM   #56
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think they should stick to making ONLY the P220, P226, and P229 guns--since that is the only product line they can reliably make without messing up.
I hope not- I want the 938 "Extreme"* perfected before they do that!

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No one will fault them for starting over.
Their accountants and stockholders would.











* I hate the silly "Extreme" marketing tag .... what exactly is "Extreme" about not wanting my pinkie finger wrapped around nothing?
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Old November 1, 2013, 09:13 AM   #57
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I like both pistols. I think the Sig P220 in .45ACP is Sig's best pistol. That being said, I shot a P220 side by side with a Colt lightweight Commander XSE, and I think that is the comparable weapon. I preferred the Colt 1911 over the Sig as I was more accurate with it, and liked the ergos, and control placement better. The trigger on the Colt was superb.
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Old November 1, 2013, 05:18 PM   #58
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Couple the fact that Sig wants to make a better mousetrap with the external extractor and their squared off slide doesn't fit any of my 1911 holsters meant the Sig was sold not long after I finally managed to get Sig to fix it.
Just because your SIG didn't fit any of your holsters meant for "conventional" 1911 pistols doesn't mean all SIG 1911 pistols are "junk".

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Sig needs to narrow their product line, since they think they can do everything well. They can't. Or just make a solid 1911 design with a proper slide, extractor, and internals.
What is a "proper slide"? One that fits holsters you have in your holster inventory? And, other than the fact that external extractors didn't come with original 1911 pistols, what's wrong with an external extractor if it extracts? Mine sure do, with aplomb.
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Old November 2, 2013, 12:52 AM   #59
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Couple of points here:

My point about spec ops units using DA pistols is just a simple observation that they could use about anything, including a range of high capacity SAO guns, and don't bother. Instead they learn to shoot a DA/SA trigger well, and they don't seem to have a big training problem doing so. Whether it is a primary weapon or not, they shoot them fast and accurately. So do the majority of military and police agencies the world over. Berettas and Sigs are by far the dominant military and police pistol worldwide - not HPs, Glocks or 1911s. And before that it was DA revolvers and Walther PPs. DA is only a problem if you don't want to learn to use it.

A Sig does not have a sliding trigger. It has a hinged trigger, just like every fine target pistol and rifle ever built. Just because a 1911 happens to have a sliding trigger it doesn't mean that it is the best way to make a trigger.


I think everyone in this little debate knows that we're talking about two good weapon platforms, and are only taking sides in the limited confines of the question. Many of us would never consider either huge pistol for carry - these are duty weapon sized guns designed for military flap holsters. But for the question at hand, the gun that is simpler to fire seems to fit the bill better.

1911s are great guns for competition and for use as a primary weapon - kind of like how Delta uses them. Other platforms excel where we need them: carried often, rarely used.


PS - I too have heard so many complaints about SIG 1911s I certainly wouldn't bother with them. Sounds like even an Armscor product is a far better bet. The history of 1911 production seems to involve a lot of stories of failure - even a whiff of failure doesn't belong anywhere near a device you entrust your life to.

SIG of Switzerland has designed some fantastic products. SIG USA, not so much. The sigforum.com has gone from a fan site to a place to complain about product failures in the last few years.
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Old November 3, 2013, 06:55 AM   #60
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Or just make a solid 1911 design with a proper slide, extractor, and internals. No one will fault them for starting over.
JMB thought very highly of the external extractor.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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