The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 29, 2013, 11:41 PM   #1
TheDutchman19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2012
Location: So Cal
Posts: 105
Removing donuts from fired cases

I have a large batch of Lapua brass that have 4 firings on them. Since I started loading I have learned about the beloved donut.

If I anneal those necks & shoulders, can I go back and remove the donuts?
TheDutchman19 is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 09:20 AM   #2
Vance
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2011
Location: North Bend, OR
Posts: 479
How would deep fat fried yeast rings get into your brass? I've never seen that. Anybody got pictures?
Vance is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 09:58 AM   #3
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,757
They tell you in every manual I have ever seen not to reload and eat or drink at the same time, and here you are droppin' pastries on your brass!


You buy 'em books and you buy 'em books, and they just chew on the covers ....... <exits, grumbling.......>






......
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 10:03 AM   #4
TheDutchman19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2012
Location: So Cal
Posts: 105
Just so we're clear, I am an expert with the fried donuts. (fat faced smiley)

It's the brass ones at the neck and shoulder transition that I would like a little input on.
TheDutchman19 is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 10:25 AM   #5
603Country
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 2,248
Do you even have the dreaded brass donut? Are you worrying about something that may not have happened? As for what to do if you do have them, danged if I know.
603Country is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 10:36 AM   #6
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,757
Are you referring to a partially collapsed shoulder?
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 10:36 AM   #7
Jim243
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2009
Location: Just off Route 66
Posts: 4,440
The only time I remember seeing donuts on the cases is when the neck has been pushed into the body of the case. Need to adjust your dies so that does not happen.

Solution for donuts in the case is to put then into the junk pile, you have already smashed the case and it is not worth trying to save. You will experience neck separation if you try to use them. Hopefully you have done this to only 2 or 3 cases.

Jim
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Last edited by Jim243; October 30, 2013 at 10:43 AM.
Jim243 is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 12:46 PM   #8
overthere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2012
Posts: 170
Not sure if it is against the rule to post links to other forums but if you google the words 'case neck donut' and look halfway down the results on the first page there is a posting in an 'opticstalk' forum that has a good discussion on it.

There is a posting in that thread by a user called sakomato that has drawings and photos for how he deals with it.

In regards to your question about annealing, I do not see how annealing the cases would affect your ability to deal with donuts, would you run into them.
overthere is online now  
Old October 30, 2013, 02:11 PM   #9
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,752
Never heard of a brass donut. I stay away from the fried variety - fat enough as it is.
__________________
http://czfirearms.us/ same original CZForum, new location.
armoredman is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 02:30 PM   #10
madmo44mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: Ft.Worth, Texas
Posts: 1,025
__________________
Texas - Not just a state but an attitude!
For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW
madmo44mag is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 02:35 PM   #11
TimSr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 437
Must be law enforcement loads.
TimSr is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 02:36 PM   #12
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 2,585
The dreaded do-nut, I ask questions like, it is stretch? Is it flow? is it both stretch and flow.

I make do-nuts, I have dies that are do-nut making machines without firing the case, there was a smith that was happy with 60% failure rate when fire forming cases. The chamber was a 22 Improved 6mm Remington.

To help him out I formed the cases from 25/06 and 30/06 cases for added length between the shoulder and case head. By the time I got the cases down to 243 the neck was almost closed off meaning I had to ream the necks. I had to ream the necks again when the cases were necked to 22 cal.

Then there is the shooting of the case and creating donuts, there are many links posted about bench resters, not new information but information that has been around for 20 to 30 years. Without fail the do-nut comes up, goes something like "don't worry about it, it happens" (reminds me of Forest Gump). the do-nut is a restriction, something like an orifice in a line to control flow, then there is that part that goes something like 'don't worry about it, if the bullet does not come in contact with it when seating apply the leaver policy, leaver where you founded. Then there is push it out to the outside then trim the neck.

F. Guffey BRtB
F. Guffey is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 07:14 PM   #13
SL1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 8, 2007
Posts: 1,997
Dutchman, you certainly must be nearing a record for non-useful responses.

I do not have any exerience with (brass) donut problems, so maybe I am not the guy who can tell you best. But, until that guy comes on here with a helpful answer, I will offer some thoughts.

First, annealing will not affect your ability to deal with the donuts, if that was part of your question.

Also, I have shot Federal .270 brass over a dozen times without having donut problems, so I certainly would not EXPECT donut problems with Lapua brass after 4 firings if everything is set-up approximately right.

As you seem to know, the donut is a thickening of the brass IN THE NECK just above the shoulder. When you expand a case neck with a button expander, that will tend to put the extra metal on the OUTSIDE of the case neck. So, a caliper should be able to show you if it is there and, if so, how thick it is. If there is a little and it does not affect chambering, you are probably fine. Some may argue that the donut might become so thick so as to leave so little clearance in the chamber that it will raise pressure by not releasing the bullet easily enough. Of course, that is theoretically possible, but not very likely. If the bullet is not seated as deeply as the donut's location, then it isn't an issue at all. Otherwise, looking for a few thousandths clearance between YOUR chamber and YOUR loaded case necks should be basis for determining if you need to do something.

Some will argue that the donuts will not be completely uniform in thickness, so the concentricity of your loads will be off and that will affect accuracy. You can check for that too, although it requires some fancy equipment.

If you do find that you have donuts that need attention, I am told that the proper way to do it is to size the neck without expanding and then ream the necks. That is the only way to get all of the donut clear through the junction with the shoulder. I have not done that, but it seems to me that it would require some attention to what diameter you sized the neck to (probably with a neck-sizing bushing die) and the diameter you use for the reamer. Of course, it is necessary to use a rig that centers the reamer in the OUTSIDE diameter of the neck. So, if you decide you really need to ream, I suggest you talk to a more experienced person than me.

SL1
SL1 is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 09:32 PM   #14
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,221
To back up what SL1 said, the well-aged sectioned case below shows a clear donut. while the once-fired one does not. The old case also has inside reamer marks from when the previous donut was removed. In long neck cases like the .30-06, it's most common that bullets don't seat deeply enough to get squeezed by the donut. In shorter necks, the possibility exists. Presumably seating pushes it outward so the taper of the neck is slightly expanded.



The donut forms during full length sizing. The die first narrows the entering case, which elongates it, then, after the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder in the die and starts to push it back, The shoulder brass slips upward and inward and fails to go completely into the neck, with some pushed inward at the corner with the neck, forming the donut.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old October 30, 2013, 09:51 PM   #15
Vance
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2011
Location: North Bend, OR
Posts: 479
OK. Now I understand what is being talked about. Not enough experience with rifle reloading to have encountered that yet.
Vance is offline  
Old October 31, 2013, 09:33 AM   #16
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 2,585
Vance, you are O.K., there are reloader with years of experience that have no clue. I said I have dies that are do-nut making machines, I form do-nuts without firing a case. Others claim they form do-nuts when they fire the case. Others claim the angle of the shoulder encourages and or discourages do-nuts. Reloaders with worlds of experience have not experienced everything, others claim they forgot and not remember. R. Lee made reloading sets, seems the sets were labeled target sets. Worth the money, the sets included a neck reamer (do not forget to lube the neck). the die included was not a full length sizer die, it was a neck sizer die.

http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instru...ndTrimDies.pdf

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/247...-reamer-7mm-06

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?dimensionids=12783

Do-nuts and bad habits. Pushing the donut out with the sizer plug, there is mono thinking and plural thinking as in keeping up with two thought at the same time. Pushing the donut out and back works the brass at the shoulder/neck juncture, continuing the bad habit can result in neck separation, ‘WARRANTY?’ Yes, when it brakes you get to keep both pieces. Then there is the love affair with collet dies. Like magic, the case seems to float while the neck is perfectly returned to the exact size and trimming is no longer necessary. And I wonder while the case is being supported the neck gets stuffed down causing the case to wad up between the shoulder and neck, again causing a donut, my opinion, that is not a donut, it is a flaw in the design.

I ask” It it stretch? Is it flow? or is it stretch and flow? I have never found a case with skid marks.



F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old October 31, 2013, 09:42 AM   #17
DAVID NANCARROW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2000
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 1,487
Just a thought...would a Lee neck sizing collet die remove the donut?
DAVID NANCARROW is offline  
Old October 31, 2013, 09:42 AM   #18
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 2,585
TheDutchman19, What chamber? What dies? I have dies that are do-nut making machines, no one ask if there is a difference between forming cases and firing cases when do-nuts appear.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Provoking someone to think only makes them mad.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old October 31, 2013, 10:42 AM   #19
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,221
David,

Theoretically, and assuming all proper fit and function, the mandrel the Collet Die forms the neck against should prevent a donut from narrowing the neck. The squeezed brass flows some, of course, as Mr. Guffey says. I don't know how much simply distributes around the neck circumference and how much squeezes back toward the shoulder. Of the portion that squeezes back, I would expect some follows the mandrel surface, forming a kind of internal crater rim around the inside base of the neck which should not hurt anything. Some other portion may end up in the neck OD at the corner with the shoulder.

I've been sizing cases in two steps, using a Redding Body Die followed by a Lee Collet Die for the neck. It results in very good neck alignment. However, I have a lot of brass and have not yet shot just one case enough times to see a clear picture of where the neck brass ends up flowing to with this sizing method. I should probably pick a case and load and shoot it all day by that method, with intermittent annealing, and then section it afterward to see what I get after 20-30 firings.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old November 1, 2013, 12:29 PM   #20
rodfac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,517
Great post and pics UncleNick. I've loaded for 50+ years and have never seen as clear an explanation let alone pics of same. I've added your excellent remarks to my don't destroy file of useful data. Attaboy, Rod
__________________
Our Flag does not fly because the wind blows against it, it is moved instead, by the dying breath of our patriots in uniform. Our Freedom is not free, it's been paid for many times over.
USAF Forward Air Controller, 5th Spl Forces,
An Loc, lll Corps, RVN, 69-70, Vietnam Vet '69-'73
rodfac is offline  
Old November 1, 2013, 07:11 PM   #21
wncchester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2002
Posts: 2,832
Only neck turning or reaming will 'remove' donuts but you would more likely have a case head seperation before any donut forms in normal reloading practice. Donuts are primarily a result of case reforming, specifically involving necking up to a larger bullet diameter.

Donuts don't matter anyway unless the seated bullets extend below the neck and, depending on it's thickness and your chamber's neck diameter, it may not matter then.
wncchester is offline  
Old November 2, 2013, 09:22 AM   #22
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 2,585
“Donuts are primarily a result of case reforming, specifically involving necking up to a larger bullet diameter”

Wncchestr, When forming I normally neck up first, I have never had a do-nut form while necking up a case, going the other way, a different matter, when I form cases I do not confuse the two, there is necking up and there is necking down. Necking up and or down is not case forming. When I form cases the shoulder is not moved back, the shoulder does not move, it is erased, when I form a case the neck becomes part of the shoulder and the shoulder becomes part of the case body, When forming a case the shoulder that is formed is a new shoulder, the new shoulder is formed from what was the case body.

Back to the questions: Is it flow? or Is it case stretch? or Is it stretch and flow?

Then there is case forming going the other way, as when forming wildcats. An example would be the 30/06 to the 30 Gibbs. The 30/06 shoulder does not move, it becomes part of the case body, the shoulder is formed from the case neck, because the case shortens as much as .035” I prefer to form the 30 Gibbs from 280" Remington cases. 280 Remington cases are .051” longer than 30/06 cases.

Do-nuts, when forming appear at the shoulder neck juncture when forming the shoulder with brass that once was the case body, my favorite forming die and neck reaming die is the 243 Winchester and 308 Winchester. My methods and techniques do not work for others: rational? I have to explain why my favorite forming and reaming dies are my favorite.

The OP ask why do do-nuts appear in his fired cases, I ask what chamber, what rifle.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old November 2, 2013, 09:33 AM   #23
F. Guffey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Posts: 2,585
Bench retsters claim ‘do-nuts’ do not matter because they do not know what to do with them and they do not know what causes them. When I have hot, high pressure, metal cutting gas escaping I want it to escape as smoothly as possible, building a speed bump as the exit hole can only disturbed the flow and or create an obstruction.

F. Guffey
F. Guffey is offline  
Old November 2, 2013, 10:52 AM   #24
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,067
This is from the benchrest site

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...ssian-to-6-PPC
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam
VFW
old roper is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12547 seconds with 9 queries