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Old October 26, 2013, 07:55 AM   #1
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Lube question

I've been searching this forum and other sources regarding cast bullet lube recipes and I have found as many recipes and opinions as crooked politicians in DC ... I found one that alot of people were using (the felix I think it was called 2 pounds beeswax, 2 pounds paraffin, 2 pounds lithium grease) My question is this... Most people were using this for sticks to use in the Lubrisizer but I will be pan-lubbing mine... Is this a decent recipe for pan-lubbing or primarily for use in the lubrisizer...If not can you recommend a recipe for pan-lubbing...Thanks... WV
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Old October 26, 2013, 09:21 AM   #2
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You are correct. There are many recipes. Most will work somewhat, some work great! First.....
What type bullet will you be shooting?
What kind of gun?
And how fast/hot are you planning on loading it?

That will help us to recommend a lube. ........(or twenty)
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Old October 26, 2013, 04:19 PM   #3
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Oh I'm sorry... LEE 2-Cavity Mold 452-200-SWC 200 Grain 45 ACP Bullet #68 H&G #90348...I'll be using wheel weight lead for the most part but I do have some pure I'll add occasionally... 45 ACP and I don't have exact load info yet as I am still researching that as well...I do not plan to load them hot at all...I want a target load setup just to practice ...I shoot a Springfield XDs and I use the larger magazines at the range but I intend to practice and get to know this gun alot...I carry defense rounds but will be shooting the cast at the range...
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Old October 28, 2013, 04:34 AM   #4
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Well to be honest, with what your going to use it on, I would simply go with some of the White Label Lubes 45/45/10 and be dome with it. I use a vacuum type storage bag to tumble my bullets in simply due to it being heavy enough to handle some heat from a hair drier and it has stood up to the mineral spirits which is the thinner in the lube. I dump in 50 or a hundred bullets, add in a pea or bean sized clump of the lube and heat them up with a hair drier till the lube melts and roll them all around till they are coated. Size and repeat, then load. There is usually plenty of lube left over to coat them after sizing as well, juet be sure to heat them up and it will recoat with plenty for what your looking to do. I have run this same formula lube up to 1700fps with a Lee 452-300 RF in my 454 with no issues what so ever, and shot hundreds of the same bullet your looking at through my ACP with nothing to show in my barrel except soot.

As for the other lubes, I mixed up some of the Felix, as well as a couple of others when I first got started. I'm not saying that they don't work or that they don't work well, but they are far more than what you actually need for the loads your looking to use. They are generally used for higher pressure or higher velocity loads like top end magnum handgun or 2000 + fps rifle loads.

As for a good load for that particular bullet, if you can find some Bullseye, lad between 3.5 and 4.5grs for a nice sweet shooting target load. If you start low and it won't function your slide just bump it up in .02 increments until it does. Most of your brass will/should fall right out beside your feet, and your groups should be one big ragged hole.

Hope this helps.

Oh just had a brain fart, Glen seemed to have had a fire in his shop there at White Label Lubes. If they don't have any of the 45/45/10 in stock, you might just pick up a bottle of the straight Lee Alox and cut it 50/50 with unscented mineral spirits. It will take longer to dry but will work just as good. Or if your the DIY type, you can pick up a can of Johnson's Paste Wax, some Alox, and some mineral spirits and makeup your own. IT's easy to do, you just need to be sure you have a container to put it in when done. That is the formula I am using myself. I picked up some small locking top SS containers at the local Dollar Store similar to these, Locking Lid SS Container They work perfectly for storing a batch of the 45/45/10. After a couple of months it will thicken up however, but you just warm it up and add in a small amount of mineral spirits and your good to go again. I like mine about the consistency of thick cake icing, but thats just me. I use a Popsicle stick to dig it out and apply to the bag of bullets.
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Old October 28, 2013, 05:11 AM   #5
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Mike...Thanks for the info...just to clarify, your saying don't even bother with the process of pan-lubbing? I assume you mean the actual process is for the high pressure rounds??? Alox,johnsons paste wax and MIn spirits mix then put them in a bag and mix it up... will that process fill the lube groves in the bullet good enough??? also do I do that after sizing or before...I have a Lee sizer not the lubrisizer of course....Thanks again for all your help...
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Old October 28, 2013, 09:26 AM   #6
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I'm not Mike but the lube is more of a surface lube and covers the whole bullet although not too thick a coat as to "fill" the lube grooves in fact if you can't tell it's on there well that's enough (imo).

Here's the liquid lube Mike is talking about and the way I do it ( no way is better than any other way .just personal preference).

A few drops of the 45-45-10 and put a lid on my handy dandy container . shake rattle and roll a tad then lay them out on a bit of wax paper let dry , then I put them through a lee sizer and repeat the lube deal again , dry and load ....
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Old October 28, 2013, 10:08 AM   #7
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just my 2 cents on 45-45-10. I like to use it for tumbling and sizing the bullets. I've tried tumbling afterwards lightly, heavily, and multiple times. Each would give me leading until I started dipping them. I know that I had them sized correctly.
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Old October 28, 2013, 11:27 AM   #8
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Quote:
My question is this... Most people were using this for sticks to use in the Lubrisizer but I will be pan-clubbing mine... Is this a decent recipe for pan-clubbing or primarily for use in the lubrisizer...If not can you recommend a recipe for pan-lubing...Thanks... WV
First, get rid of the idea that you MUST fill the lube groves to prevent leading. Like adrians said, it's more of a "cover the boolit" concept than having the lube grooves filled.

The Recluse 45-45-10 formula has proven it's self to be the best tumble lube out there, it dries quickly and is not tacky like the lee liquid alox. If you can see it on the boolit, you've got too much on them. Johnson's paste wax,(JPW), is mainly carnuba wax. If you can find some plain carnuba wax, it'll be cheaper and work just as well.
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Old October 28, 2013, 06:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
I've tried tumbling afterwards lightly, heavily, and multiple times. Each would give me leading until I started dipping them. I know that I had them sized correctly.
That's just plum crazy there. Unless your sizer is dropping them down too small I don't know of why the lube would cause that type of excessive leading.

Not saying your not getting it, just that there has to be something else at play. Like I mentioned above, I have run it almost exclusively in my 454 with the Lee 452-300RF, and in everything else I have loaded cast for. The only time I got any appreciable leading was when I used some softer alloy, which I knew going into it, would probably give me issues in my 41 mag. This is what it looked like after only 4 rounds,


As compared to my 45 Colt which had over a hundred rounds through it at this time,


What are you loading for that is giving you the leading issues you mention, and have you tried loading and shooting some without sizing to see if they leaded then as well?

Not picking on you, just trying to figure out what might be going on. Most folk's reason for not liking to using Alox is due to it being messy and sticky, hardly ever due to leading.
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Old October 28, 2013, 07:08 PM   #10
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CS86===
Quote:
I've tried tumbling afterwards lightly, heavily, and multiple times. Each would give me leading until I started dipping them. I know that I had them sized correctly
Mike/Tx ===
Quote:
That's just plum crazy there. Unless your sizer is dropping them down too small I don't know of why the lube would cause that type of excessive leading.
That first quote had me scratching my head ,,, the second quote is what I was thinking but Mike/Tx beat me to it,,,
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Old October 29, 2013, 11:55 AM   #11
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fellas, it kind of has me baffled too. I don't have data in front of me but here is what I remember. I'm shooting 230gr .45acp Lee tumble designed slugs, which is an easy lead throwing caliber. I was originally trying out of a .45acp 1911 and found the issue was an oval barrel that needed larger boolits. That gun has bee sold and replaced with a .357 mag. Then I tried out of a .45acp. XDS that has a short throat but a nicely finished barrel and came out completely round. It's been awhile but if memory serves me correct it was a hair under .4500 like .4498.

Most times I have slugs dropping at .452-.453 with wheel weights. Normally using 5.4gr of W231 I think... Testing involved air cooled, water dropped, sized to .452 and Unsized. Coating has been as described: light, heavier, dipped of 45-45-10. The heavy tumble left lead toward the end of the barrel. I've checked that I haven't taper crimped (as a separate step) to heavy and swaged the slug. The thing that I've found doesn't leave leading is either dipping with 45-45-10 or dipping another lube that consists of bees wax, Vaseline, JPW, and paraffin that turned out way to soft so I tried dipping with it. It worked good but dipping and using a cutter was to much time and messy.

The only other thing I could think of is if I mixed the 45-45-10 with to much mineral spirits and it may be to thin, but I have my doubts.
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Old October 29, 2013, 10:14 PM   #12
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wow!!! seems complicated...I was hoping for a mixture to use for pan-lubbing my 45 acp bullets... mainly what I got back was pan-lubbing not necessary or maybe it is... no wait it isn't no ... it is... or any thing will lead your barrel...wait a minute no it won't....lol lol lol ... I'll youtube and hope for the best...
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Old October 30, 2013, 03:26 AM   #13
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WVBassFan,

I am sorry I somewhat hijacked your post. To answer your question the Alox will or should work for your use. If you pick up the Lee .452 push through sizing kit your going to get a bottle of it anyway. As for what type of bullets to use it on, well it really doesn't matter as it works on them all and no you don't have to have the grooves filled with it. The post that adrians put up is about all there really is to it. Loaded to just about any 45 ACP load they should shoot fine.

Of course there is always an exception as seen with CS86's issue. I cannot say that it is unheard of that Alox doesn't work out, but it is pretty rare. Usually when there is leading involved in low velocity low pressure rounds it is due to the alloy or fit. Most of the time it is noted using commercial bullets which are cast using overly hard alloy, and lube, and the first recommendation is to try tumbling them with Alox to see if that helps. Usually it does and the shooter can at least use up what they have on hand.

I personally have shot thousands of my own cast downrange using the 45/45/10 mix and as mentioned the only issue I have found is when using the wrong alloy for the wrong application. But I had to try it to find out. To be fair the same bullets also leaded up the barrel when I pan lubed them with Carnuba Red which is an awesome lube for high pressure high velocity rounds. I simply exceeded the limits of the alloy I was using. Same bullet cast with just a touch more hardness and everything was hunky dory.

Again sorry I started asking about the other right in the middle of your post.

The key things with shooting cast are (1) Fit is King, (2) Lube is Queen, the alloy used comes in as the Joker as you can at times get a softer alloy to shoot fine by matching the load to it. However, try driving it beyond it's limits, and your going to get leading as I did. That same alloy loaded to around 950 - 1000fps works fine, bump it up into the 1250+ range like I was trying to do and you can see the results above.
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Old October 30, 2013, 04:35 AM   #14
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awesome info... hopefully you don't take my joking/sarcasm serious... My wife tells me all the time I'm a smart aleck....I tell her she's dead wrong...I'm not smart

I appreciate all the help.... Thanks again
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Old October 30, 2013, 04:37 AM   #15
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just to clarify though..... The 45/45/10 is 45 Alox 45 Johnsons and 10 mineral spirits???? is that right ?
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Old October 30, 2013, 08:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
just to clarify though..... The 45/45/10 is 45 Alox 45 Johnsons and 10 mineral spirits???? is that right
You are correct. That is by percentage 45%/45%/10%. I also apologize for any confusion with my previous post. It will be a matter of trying it out and seeing the results.

The main thing I wanted to do is allow you to see that not all lube, sizes, or bullet designs works for every gun and it may take a little different method. It may take a little time to figure it out but once you do, it is much cheaper to shoot lead and I believe more enjoyable.

Mike/Tx has great advice as well as some of the others. Read from other experiences and decide for yourself what to try.

Quote:
The key things with shooting cast are (1) Fit is King, (2) Lube is Queen, the alloy used comes in as the Joker
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Old October 30, 2013, 09:32 AM   #17
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[QUOTE] just to clarify though..... The 45/45/10 is 45 Alox 45 Johnsons and 10 mineral spirits???? is that right ? [QUOTE]

Yes.

Tumble lubing is not "complicated" at all. I actually is about as simple a lubing process you can get.

One thing I have found is that the Lee sizing die can under size the bullets. My 45 bullets should be .451, but actially came out .450-.4505. Always check your sized bullets for proper fit.

If your bullet come out to small you and open up the die in just a few minute.

Take the die out of the press.

Remove the lock ring.

Wrap a dowel rod with some emery paper, 400grit to start, 600+ to polish.

Insert the rod into the die and roll it across the table.

Check internal diameter often as the die is soft and it doesn't take long.

Here is a few videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Oo94tT8_-k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG2MFQL8oLU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CduXYE_ISVU

EDIT: Wrong bullet diameter.

My 45 bullet should be .452, they sized at .451-.4515. Sorry.

Last edited by steve4102; October 30, 2013 at 10:36 PM.
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Old October 30, 2013, 03:12 PM   #18
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Unless you just want the "fun" of making your own lube, I use just pure Lee Alox lube for pan lubing my bullets. It's cheap enough that it's just not worth my time to make my own. You can buy other brands cheaper than Lee, as well. Just pure Alox.
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Old October 30, 2013, 06:13 PM   #19
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Steve4102 is exactly right. It may or may not be part of your problem, but don't assume that because you ran em through a .452 die that they are .452 now.
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