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Old October 27, 2013, 10:01 AM   #1
chipchip
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Accuracy

What would result in better accuracy. Shooting off a rest or Bi-pod
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Old October 27, 2013, 10:20 AM   #2
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Both will give you good accuracy . I believe you will get more consistency off sand bags . The sand bags should give more consistent harmonics then a bipod . The gun will vibrate differently when the bipod is on different surfaces . The rifle could have POI shifts when shooting from concrete to soft dirt or wooden bench when using a bipod. It should still shoot accurately though . you will just get different POI from surface to surface . It's my understanding using a bag that issue should be less . Do to the way the sand deadens all vibrations .
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Old October 27, 2013, 10:26 AM   #3
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It depends on how well you can shoot, bipods work well but do not provide sufficient damping for serious B.R. competitions.
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Old October 27, 2013, 12:35 PM   #4
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rest
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Old October 28, 2013, 08:40 AM   #5
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I have a Harris bipod that I have used for years for my target shooting with really good results when I learned to 'front-load' it. I still use it occasionally and am very happy with it.

I recently bought a Sinclair F-Class Gen 3 bipod - an aluminum bipod that has wide fixed feet with vertical adjustments, an azimuth adjustment, and a tilt adjustment. It is a lot more stable than a standard bipod and cost from $219 to $250 depending upon the sale price. My group size averages have gotten smaller by about 0.010 of an inch with three different rifles.

I also have a Sinclair adjustable bench rest. It is an expensive rest with every adjustment imaginable. It is slightly quicker to adjust for height than the F-Class when changing from rifle to rifle as long as the rifle has the same size front stock. I find I needed to get a front bag that fit each of my rifle's front stock to get the best results. The bags come in multiple widths to fit the rifle's front stock but they are a PITA to change out. I use the bench rest for my rifles that don't have a front sling swivel to mount the F-Class bipod.

I find that the F-Class bipod produces the same accuracy as the bench rest when I tried the bench rest with the rifles that I normally use the F-Class bipod for.

I would say accuracy depends on the bipod, how you use it, and whether you use a rear bag. A rear bag is an important part of accuracy if you are able to set up with one. A fist under the stock can work but that depends on the width of the stock and the height of the bipod.

I use a Protektor rear bag for stability on the bench. It works well with both bipods and the bench rest. One thing I learned was that you need to remove the rear swivel stud on your rifle when using the Protektor rear bag or the stud may bounce against the rear bag ears on recoil. If it does, you'll see it in your POI.
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Old October 28, 2013, 09:13 AM   #6
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Whatever absorbs the vibrations through the stock to what it's resting on is best when hand-holding the rifle. If the rifle's shot in free recoil, untouched by humans except for one fingertip on a 2-ounce trigger, then anything hard will do just fine. Everything in between these two means whatever pressure there is between the rifle and its rest has to be the same amount and from the same direction for each shot.

I think most folks will get best accuracy shooting from prone with the stock's forend resting on something soft enough to absorb some of the stock movement while the bullet's going through the barrel. Slung up with the stock toe resting on something else helps keep the point of aim moving around in the smallest area. And one's body position behind the rifle's more repeatable, too. Such positions are now popular in F-class high power competition and the rifles shoot ammo darned near as accurate as they would when fired in free recoil clamped in a machine rest. If a bipod's used and the stock's fore end touches the barrel at any point, best accuracy will be hard to get.

Sitting at a bench holding on to heavy recoiling rifles slamming into ones shoulders is not all that consistantly accurate across the human race. In a test some years ago, over a dozen people shot the same scoped 12-pound .308 Win. match rifle and ammo at 100 yards from a bench resting it on whatever they wanted but holding it against their shoulder. Groups ranged from 3/4 inch up to almost 2 inches. That rifle slung up in prone rested as explained above shot that ammo 1/3 MOA at worst by its owner.

Then there's the conundrum of what method is best of assesing accuracy based on shots fired and group size(s).
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Old October 28, 2013, 09:38 AM   #7
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What is it you are trying to do?

Quote:
What would result in better accuracy. Shooting off a rest or Bi-pod
Ultimate accuracy or practical accuracy?

Bart B. has the answer for ultimate accuracy:

Quote:
I think most folks will get best accuracy shooting from prone with the stock's forend resting on something soft enough to absorb some of the stock movement while the bullet's going through the barrel. Slung up with the stock toe resting on something else helps keep the point of aim moving around in the smallest area. And one's body position behind the rifle's more repeatable, too. Such positions are now popular in F-class high power competition and the rifles shoot ammo darned near as accurate as they would when fired in free recoil clamped in a machine rest.
..... just not very practical for anything other than target shooting- if you sight a rifle in on a led sled, and then put a bi-pod on it and take it afield and try hitting a very distant target with the bi-pod for support, I would not be terribly surprised if the POI shifted ..... and you can't often take the led sled with you afield ....
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Old October 28, 2013, 01:56 PM   #8
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Jimbob, machine rests are only good for testing rifles and ammo for accuracy. You cannot move them around once locked in place to put the rifle back into the exact same position from shot to shot after they slide back and up a bit in recoil. Which is why folks getting best accuracy with them do so early in the morning before even subtle cross winds show up.

Here's one in action testing a 24 caliber tube gun for accuracy shooting 2" groups at 600 yards:

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Old October 28, 2013, 03:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Jimbob, machine rests are only good for testing rifles and ammo for accuracy.
I understand that ....

And a rest on a bench (such as a lead sled) is just as impracitical in the field ....

Quote:
if you sight a rifle in on a led sled, and then put a bi-pod on it and take it afield and try hitting a very distant target with the bi-pod for support, I would not be terribly surprised if the POI shifted ..... and you can't often take the led sled with you afield ....

I think that for the most part, bi-pods are impractial on a hunting rifle, as well .... which is why I asked what was the OP trying to do ....
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Old October 28, 2013, 06:22 PM   #10
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I shoot off of both and hands down I shoot better off sand bags. Now if you practice off of the bipod you can get very good using it and they are practical to use in the field. My groups are just tighter off the bags.
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Old October 28, 2013, 08:52 PM   #11
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A Bi-pod can be extremely accurate on a rifle that is properly bedded and has a very stiff stock. Trying to shoot Tupperware off a bi-pod is a losing cause.
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Old October 29, 2013, 10:01 AM   #12
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I don't like either. I use a sling.

In the Vintage Sniper Matches, the CMP allows you to use sandbags or sling, but not both. I tried both and found I'm much more accurate with the sling.

It may help using the sling if you can rest the forearm of the support hand on a sandbag or pack, but if the sling is used correctly, that may not be the case.

When properly used, with a good natural point of aim, after recoil you're going to fall back on target with your NPA. Meaning you don't have to "wiggle" to get back on target. This helps a lot in follow through. That's why often in high power you see better groups in rapid fire then slow fire (prone where you shoot both). That's because most shooters, knowing they have less time to wiggle around will get a tighter position.

If the sling and position are correct, as you breath, the sights move up and down, but when you're at the bottom of the breathing cycle (where you should be shooting) you'll find the sights fall back to your natural point of aim.

Bipods nor rest/sand bags (excluding machine rest) allow for this, you'll find you have to muscle the rifle a bit to get back to you NPA, which screws up follow through.

Go to the range and watch people shoot. You'll see both rest/sand bags and bipods, watch them after the shot, you'll see a lot of moving around. Now go to a HP match. Watch the slung shooters. Very little movement after the recover from recoil.

Look at these pictures of the prone position. If you have your NPA, you can't help but fall back into position during recoil, giving you a faster follow up shot and better follow though.



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Old October 29, 2013, 10:30 AM   #13
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Best example of getting ones "natural point of aim" is best seen watching rifle teams with M1 or M14 rifles shooting the National Infantry Trophy Match at the Nationals. Six shooters in the first stage at 600 yards in prone have 50 seconds to put as many rounds as possible on the full silhoutte target. Good shooters will put 24 rounds down range in a group about 1 foot in diameter well centered on the target. They take a deep breath, shoot one magazine/clip until empty then reload while taking another deep breath. Rounds are fired about every 1.5 seconds. None of them reposition themselves after each shot; the rifle comes right back to the natural point of aim after every round fired. There's 8 targets so two shooters puts 2/3rds of their ammo on one target and 1/3rd on the other one. The other two shoot straight away on one target. Bonus points are given if all targets have at least 6 hits.

Then they move to 500 yards and do that all over again. Next to 300 yards in sitting and do it again but with a half silhouette target. They've usually shot all the team's 384 rounds issued to them by then and don't have to go to 200 yards and shoot what's left over from standing.

History and details are interesting and well covered in the link below:

http://www.odcmp.com/NM/InfantryTrophyMatchHistory.pdf

The best test to see if you really are in your natural point of aim is to get on target, breathe deeply a few times, exhale half of the last one, hold still, close your eyes for 20 to 25 seconds then open them and see where the sights are on the target. If they're still dead center, you're in your NPOA.
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Last edited by Bart B.; October 29, 2013 at 10:38 AM.
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Old October 29, 2013, 11:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
I don't like either. I use a sling.
+1.

I sight my hunting rifle in with the sling and sticks, and use the sticks in the field if there is time to use them. There is almost always enough time to use the sling, unless the animal appears at close range, in which case speed is more important than precision.
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Old October 29, 2013, 04:35 PM   #15
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I've used both, but prefer the bipod up front and a bag in the rear. It's simply more practical.

I use .308's and the recoil on the rest can wear the bottom of the stock. The bipod moves with the rifle and the feet take all the abrasion. Additionally, the rest takes a lot more room in the car. The bipod hardly anything.

The rear bag makes a lot of difference for accuracy.
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Old October 29, 2013, 05:15 PM   #16
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Eppie, sprinkle talcum powder on the rest so the fore end'll slide freely on it.
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