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Old October 26, 2013, 09:38 AM   #26
FireForged
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I try not to focus too much on the "bullseye" aspect of SD drills. Certainly there is a threshold of what is considered proficient but in a real life crisis, I don't think are any bonus points for group size.
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Old October 26, 2013, 09:54 AM   #27
g.willikers
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As FireForged says, there are no bonus points for good groups in the self defense use of weapons.
Accuracy in hitting the important parts of the body is necessary to stop the attacker.
But they don't have to be the same important parts.
Much can be learned from those who train with knives in this.

As for developing skill with different kinds of weapons, RBID asks a couple of good questions.
We should keep this thread going, for awhile.

Military training does include the use of the other guys' weapons.
It always has, to various degrees.
As for expecting to have to use an alternate weapon as realistic, why wouldn't it be?
Why couldn't it happen?
Some training schools do include using a so called "pick up" gun.
As do some matches.
It's quite an eye opener.
Kind of like the cross training that's become so popular in other areas.

Next?
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Old October 26, 2013, 02:19 PM   #28
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I say that it's unrealistic because it doesn't happen.

As private civilian carriers, all but the wealthy run into a resource problem. We have a finite amount of time to train or practice, and money to throw at ammunition or other linked resources. Consequently, we run into the question of how to best convert our resources into advantage.

Within that limited time, it is ideal to develop a number of distinct skills: shooting accurately with speed at varying distances, draw --> assess shoot/no shoot, draw --> first hit speed, target transitions, reloads, malfunction clearance, precise fire/ called shots, shooting from different positions, moving while shooting, strong hand only, off hand only, shooting movers, etc. We wind up in the position of having to prioritize skills to focus on, and determining how much time we put into each skill. In many cases, we have to determine which skills are sacrificed.

To determine which skills to invest most of our resources in, we need to look at which skills are most critical. That's a matter of determining frequency of relevance. We know that the overwhelming majority of private citizen DGUs are in the 0-7 yards range, increasing in frequency as the distance gets closer to the 0-5 foot range. We know that most resolve with no shots fired. Based on this, it is very clear that rapid deployment from concealment, identifying shoot/no shoot, shooting from retention, shooting while facing forward and moving backward and/or laterally, shooting with speed at extremely close distances, and strong hand only are more likely to come into play than precision fire from 25 yards, speed reloads, shooting from prone, weak hand only, etc. To be clear, these are ALL good skills to have, but some are more likely to matter than others.

It should also be apparent that the most critical skill for civilians is developing a fast and clean draw while identifying shoot/no shoot. This is important to consider, because getting a fast and clean draw is the aspect of DGU that suffers the most from carry rotation and location/method change. Some skills (trigger control, target transition, etc) translate easily across a variety of designs. Draw is not one of those.

In a real event, the defender is doing a LOT during the draw. Here's an example, using a high % situation-- low light, threat is a pair of men who reveal themselves as a threat within 5 feet. During the draw, the defender is...

- locating the firearm
- clearing cover garments
- locking into master grip
- moving to create space, backward or sideways
- yelling to draw attention and to try to 'freeze' the BGs briefly to create time
- presenting into a retention position
- observing BG reactions to defensive movement and introduction of lethal force response. IE, identifying "shoot/no shoot"
- prioritizing targets
- mapping an exit
- identifying what is behind the targets
- trying not to trip while moving

I've been in a very similar situation, except that it was dealing with one positive BG who revealed a firearm and implied intent, and a possible second BG who was physically adjacent to me, with no visible weapon. The situation resolved with no shots fired, as I was able to freeze the other two by yelling, moving, and drawing explosively, and presented lethal force before they could establish control of the situation. Drawing smoothly and quickly, and being able to focus on what was in front of me, either saved my life, or my life as I know it (no legal hang ups).

Having been through it, I get badly agitated when I see people reference Nutnfancy style, multiple pistol, multiple method, multiple location carry rotations. What it speaks to is obvious: complete disconnect from the single most crucial aspect of private citizen DGUs. Many of these guys are often making choices that they justify by saying that "the gun you have on you is better than the one at home". The problem is that the statement doesn't work if you can't get the firearm deployed fast enough to use it. Also, the faster you are able to deploy it, the less likely you are to have to shoot.

Because of the above, my view is that best practice is to carry consistently. Same weapon, same method, same location. With that, become the best you can be at deploying cleanly and rapidly. ALL of my draw practice is with my EDC, and I practice draw, draw --> shoot/no shoot/OODA loop, and speed to first hit at least twice each week for 15 minutes each session, with randomized determining factors and a timer.

As far as shooting from ready goes... Once the firearm is out and ready, most skills translate. Trigger control, recoil management, etc apply the same way (though minute differences in performance will appear between pistols).

Rewinding to the top, we consider scavenging. Likelihood of relevance in a private citizen role is effectively zero. Even in mil use, scavenging isn't active, meaning it's not jump on it and immediately deploy it. Training with enemy systems is brief. It's familiarization of basic function and field strip. A friend of mine spent 8 years with SF, and even his training was predominantly M4 and M9. During his deployment time, all of his actual combat shooting was M4, M9, and a brief experiment with a 1911.
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Old October 26, 2013, 02:45 PM   #29
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For the reason of time to first shot I have greatly thought of sticking to a J frame in my pocket. I know that my J frame is a little slower AIWB than my Glocks in the same position. However I think I would be quicker on the draw if my hand were already on the gun. Also when I draw my J frame my grip is locked into place and Im quite efficient drawing from pocket.
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Old October 26, 2013, 02:52 PM   #30
g.willikers
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Is one man's experience the universal truth?

How about this version of things:
Good guy, the intended victim, successfully draws on attacker.
Bad guy delivers a blow and good guy's gun goes flying.
Bad guy produces his own gun.
Grappling ensues, and good guy comes up with bad guy's gun.

Or

Good guy's gun jams, and becomes inoperable.
Another good guy gets involved and throws first good guy his backup snubby.

Or
Well, there's plenty of instances that could, and have, happened that would justify knowing weapons other than one's own.

Next, please.
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Old October 26, 2013, 02:55 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by g.willikers View Post
Is one man's experience the universal truth?

How about this version of things:
Good guy, the intended victim, successfully draws on attacker.
Bad guy delivers a blow and good guy's gun goes flying.
Bad guy produces his own gun.
Grappling ensues, and good guy comes up with bad guy's gun.

Or

Good guy's gun jams, and becomes inoperable.
Another good guy gets involved and throws first good guy his backup snubby.

Or
Well, there's plenty of instances that could, and have, happened that would justify knowing weapons other than one's own.

Next, please.
We can cook up hypotheticals all day. There are two truths that you're missing:

1. They do not actually happen.

2. It is bad planning to sacrifice training for real possibilities in order to address statistical zeroes.
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Old October 26, 2013, 03:41 PM   #32
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Quote:
We can cook up hypotheticals all day. There are two truths that you're missing:
1. They do not actually happen.
2. It is bad planning to sacrifice training for real possibilities in order to address statistical zeroes.
If you say so.
Wish you had told me this before I spent all that time preparing for things that couldn't possibly happen.
What a waste of good beer drinking time.
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Old October 26, 2013, 04:20 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by g.willikers View Post
If you say so.
Wish you had told me this before I spent all that time preparing for things that couldn't possibly happen.
What a waste of good beer drinking time.
It's not me who says so. It's history, sir.

For perspective:
- look at 100 different DGU write ups. The NRA puts a bunch out, right?
- break down the % where the defender used their own firearm, as opposed to scavenged firearms.

It will be 100%.
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Old October 26, 2013, 04:46 PM   #34
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But isn't training and practicing, by definition, to be ready for all the possibilities?
Just because it didn't happen yesterday doesn't mean it can't tomorrow.
And it might be folly to depend on a limited source of info.

One of the places I went for some training included swapping our guns around, as part of the agenda.
As was using one foreign to all of us.

I didn't invent this idea of learning to operate all kinds of equipment.
It's always seemed the natural thing to do.
It can't be as bad an idea as you insist.
I sleep better being as prepared as possible.
Can't hurt.

Don't let me stop you from your chosen path, though.
Oh, right.
Your mind is closed on the subject, so there's no chance of that.
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Old October 26, 2013, 04:51 PM   #35
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That's what I've been trying to tell Mr. Willikers.

I'm with RBid on this one. Muscle memory. Familiarity. Training with your main CCW pistol. All those things triumph the fun and games of carrying a different gun every week.

I'm all for fun and games when plinking safely. Hence all the stuff on the market for shooting at. Self defense could potentially save your life. I take it very seriously and have it very well though out.

Fast mag changes for example. Took me a while to become adequate with my Glock platform again. Took some classes and went to range and took some classes again, until I became better with the Glock 19 again. Why? Because I wanted to carry it. The SIG P226e2 is happily in my safe and I adore, yes...I adore a gun. 3,000+ rounds through that thing. But my primary CC sidearm is my Glock 19. It's been over a year now.
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Old October 26, 2013, 04:57 PM   #36
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sent the response at the same time.


Willikers, come on now....so by your logic the training RBid and I are saying is triumphant to your style...by your logic it would make sense to train with every single type of gun out there known to man just to cover all those bases that don't even exist? That's far fetched..

Honestly, that logic is severely flawed. It's like saying you need to drive every single car before you ever get into someone else's car to move it or drive it around the block.

No, that's universal... You drive one you drive them all. Clutches let off at different places? Equivalent to a trigger...some are heavy some are light, still works the same way.


I'm sorry, your logic is extremely flawed on this matter.
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Old October 26, 2013, 05:06 PM   #37
g.willikers
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Could it be that you guys only have confidence with your one carry gun because you don't practice enough with anything else?
The chicken or the egg?
It does take a lot more effort to be able to switch around between platforms.
These days, it's very understandable not to want to do that.
But please don't tell those who are willing to go the extra miles that they are wasting their time.
Given enough effort, it's quite easy to switch around from gun to gun, without a thought.
And be equally comfortable and effective with just about anything.
The gun really can be the least of it.
And that may be the source of our disagreement.
In the end, each must do what is the most agreeable.

P.S.
Almost missed the last reply.
Yes, it does take getting time with various types of guns.
And it pays off.
It all depends on how good one wants to be.
Personally, I wouldn't consider myself very serious about shooting, without being able to pick up just about anything and being pretty good with it.
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Old October 26, 2013, 05:13 PM   #38
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Quote:
Given enough effort, it's quite easy to switch around from gun to gun, without a thought.
"Given enough" is a qualifier which essentially reduces the rest of the sentence to meaninglessness unless it is quantified.

"Given enough money" it's possible to fly to the moon. That doesn't mean it's remotely practical, nor does it mean that it is a reasonable goal.

What is "enough effort", in your opinion?
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Old October 26, 2013, 05:17 PM   #39
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I'm taking my neighbors car to work tomorrow.

Quote:
Could it be that you guys only have confidence with your one carry gun because you don't practice enough with anything else?
Why do LEO's carry just one? Familiarity. Confidence to shoot well? All my guns. Confidence under high stress to shoot well? The Glock 19 I've trained with.

Quote:
The chicken or the egg?
I like both.

Quote:
It does take a lot more effort to be able to switch around between platforms.
On the range for fun, not a problem at all. It's fun, if you never compared you'd have no idea where to start on for a selection with a CCW.

Quote:
These days, it's very understandable not to want to do that.
Better to have a primary that's an extension of your arm in SD than a random gun with only 100rds through the pipe.

Quote:
But please don't tell those who are willing to go the extra miles that they are wasting their time.
Start by not telling the one's who don't believe you're "going the extra miles" and rather stick to one CCW that they're inadequate in their methods.

Quote:
Given enough effort, it's quite easy to switch around from gun to gun, without a thought.
Absolutely. Is it ideal for SD? No.

Quote:
And be equally comfortable and effective with just about anything.
After the required training and muscle memory, sure.

Quote:
The gun really can be the least of it.
Absolutely, the important word in "gunfight" is "fight" not "gun". If it ever comes down to that tool of "gun" wouldn't you want the one you've had the most hours of training with?

Quote:
nd that may be the source of our disagreement.
In the end, each must do what is the most agreeable.
To each their own, yes.
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Old October 26, 2013, 05:22 PM   #40
g.willikers
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Am I getting ganged up on here?

Speaking only for myself, enough effort is when I'm satisfied that I can have complete confidence with the gun in my hand and not care what it is - without a thought.
And that's why I don't limit myself to just one type of gun.
Not getting good with various types can be a handicap.
And I'd druther not be handicapped.
We each set our own goals, and that's the one that seems most useful.

By the way, am I the only one in this conversation not attempting to use the technique of argument by intimidation?
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Old October 26, 2013, 05:28 PM   #41
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Keep on practicing with what you actually carry. For it is written: When TSHTF, you will get one opportunity. And you will hit a target far better with the handgun you carry every day...and actually practice with...than the one that sits in the safe.

Quote:
I was not happy knowing that 30-50% of the time I was shooting an innocent bystander.
While I am happy to see that you take responsibility for each round fired, in this case, you are making an entirely invalid assumption.
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Old October 26, 2013, 05:30 PM   #42
g.willikers
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Ack.
That's what I've been saying.
Don't leave any of them in the safe.
Practice with them all, until it doesn't matter which one you have in your hands.
Even the other guy's.
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Old October 26, 2013, 06:14 PM   #43
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Simply stating I should slow down and because I can't miss fast enough to win in a fight.
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Old October 26, 2013, 06:47 PM   #44
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In a real event, the defender is doing a LOT during the draw. Here's an example, using a high % situation-- low light, threat is a pair of men who reveal themselves as a threat within 5 feet. During the draw, the defender is...

- locating the firearm
- clearing cover garments
- locking into master grip
- moving to create space, backward or sideways
- yelling to draw attention and to try to 'freeze' the BGs briefly to create time
- presenting into a retention position
- observing BG reactions to defensive movement and introduction of lethal force response. IE, identifying "shoot/no shoot"
- prioritizing targets
- mapping an exit
- identifying what is behind the targets
- trying not to trip while moving

90% of what is described here is intuitive.. and the time necessary to complete is fleeting. You can assign the same level of independent decision to eating cereal


Having been through it, I get badly agitated when I see people reference Nutnfancy style, multiple pistol, multiple method, multiple location carry rotations. What it speaks to is obvious: complete disconnect from the single most crucial aspect of private citizen DGUs.

Your idea of practical carry may not work all that well with people who carry fighting weapons in many different arenas ( sea, mountains, aircraft, ATV, horseback, ) or where the working spaces and logistics are not always the same. Nutnfancy may be long winded but his methods and evaluations are spot on for those he is addressing and maybe not so much for urban carriers doing light everyday tasks.


the faster you are able to deploy it, the less likely you are to have to shoot.

I think the mindset that "if I get my pistol out quickly, I might not have to use it" is a counter anything I have ever learned about fighting. It is possible that a person not need to shoot but this mindset escapes me.
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Old October 26, 2013, 06:52 PM   #45
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Quote:
Speaking only for myself, enough effort is when I'm satisfied that I can have complete confidence with the gun in my hand and not care what it is - without a thought.
Let's take a step back because I see where the disconnect is.

How do you define being proficient with a gun? What gives you complete confidence with a gun? I would define it as being able to do, at the least, all of the following:
  • The ability to rapidly draw from my normal carry position (including dealing with concealment garments) and fire multiple shots rapidly and accurately at multiple targets and reasonable self-defense ranges while moving and making use of cover. That includes constructively dealing with any safeties on the gun--manual levers/buttons/grip safeties, etc.
  • The ability to shoot with either hand and from retention positions.
  • The ability to clear any type of malfunction rapidly and effectively while keeping eyes on the target.
  • The ability to reload rapidly while keeping eyes on the target.
  • The ability to safe and reholster the gun while keeping eyes on the target/surroundings.

Achieving that level of unconscious competency with a pistol is not a simple task, it's not something that can be done quickly, nor is it a level of competency that is lasting. If you stop practicing or don't practice enough, those skills will degrade. I don't know many people who have the resources (time, money, etc.) to truly achieve and maintain this level of skill with a single platform, let alone with many platforms.
Quote:
Not getting good with various types can be a handicap.
And I'd druther not be handicapped.
You're focusing on only one aspect of this topic, and it's on the aspect that is the least likely for you to encounter.

Not being fully proficient with your carry platform is a handicap. Moreover, since the odds are tremendously in favor your being required to use your carry platform as opposed to a scavenged gun, that's a handicap that is actually likely to have an impact on any of your future deadly force encounters.

Not being fully proficient with all platforms is a handicap, but the reality of deadly force encounters is heavily in favor of this not actually being a factor since the vast majority of deadly force encounters are not resolved by the defender using a scavenged gun.

The reality is, that unless you have an unusual level of dedication, and an unusual amount of time and money to spend practicing, you will not be able to achieve unconscious competence with all the possible platforms you might encounter. So you will have a handicap--by dividing your practice resources, you'll handicap yourself by not achieving the level of competence you could have with your primary carry gun. And that's a handicap that could really matter.
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Old October 26, 2013, 09:38 PM   #46
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^ that's exactly what I was trying to say. Couldn't word it as well. Perfect.
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Old October 26, 2013, 10:04 PM   #47
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Johnska is spot on.

Fireforged,

In the moment, with tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, threat fixation, and everything else happening, many of those things are not intuitive.

As for drawing fast potentially preventing the need to shoot... Yes. I have lived through it. If you identify a threat and deploy a deterrent fast enough, you may persuade the threat to change their thinking. In my case, the BG revealed a holstered firearm, and moved to produce it deliberately. I was not deliberate, and had my firearm in hand before he cleared his holster.

A man I know was watching a movie alone in his living room on Halloween 2012. Someone kicked his front door in, and G turned, drew, and targeted the invader (without standing up, btw!). The invader was a couple steps from the couch, saw the 1911, turned right around, and ran away.

In either case, the time it would take to process the question, "where is my gun?!" could have been the difference in being assaulted or not. By knowing what and where we carry without having to think about it, each of us avoided having to fire.
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Old October 26, 2013, 10:40 PM   #48
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^ precisely why I carry 24/7 on my person. On the couch right now watching TV and...


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Old October 27, 2013, 02:04 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
^ precisely why I carry 24/7 on my person. On the couch right now watching TV and...

Yup. G is one of two people I know who have had to deploy a handgun in their own living room. The other situation required 3 rounds of .357 Magnum.
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Old October 27, 2013, 07:56 AM   #50
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You said that you couldn't find evidence of the use of alternate weapons in a real situation.
Here's the story of the infamous 1986 FBI Miami shootout with at least three instances of lost guns, the use of backup, multiple and the other guy's weapons.
All in a single and well documented incident.
Judge for yourself the merits of being capable with more than just the one you carry.
(And hope the bad guy isn't).
http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html
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