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Old October 24, 2013, 06:02 PM   #51
chipchip
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Shot my Henry BB today and it is an awesome gun. However rear and fornt sights where blurry. Going to put a fixed 4X scope on it.
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Old October 24, 2013, 06:21 PM   #52
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Scout mount or standard?
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Old October 24, 2013, 07:54 PM   #53
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Regarding the second topic being discussed here...

If I am in the field, and I observe some distant person aiming a scoped rifle at me, how is that different than if I am in the grocery store parking lot and someone aims a 9mm pistol at me?

How should I react in either case? I suppose I could assume that the gun (rifle or pistol) is not loaded, or it does not have a round chambered, or the safety is on.... I suppose I could assume the rifle bearer is trying to get a look at me with his scope.... I suppose I could assume that the pistol brandisher is evaluating the new night-sights he just installed...

Or I suppose I could assume that someone is about to attempt to murder me... and take action accordingly.

I think it is important to remind folks that not everyone who is in the field during deer season is a hunter, and the non-hunters will not be wearing orange... in fact they may not even know it is deer season. I have met hikers and backpackers during deer season... not a trace of orange on them.
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Old October 24, 2013, 08:13 PM   #54
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You assume much .....

Quote:
You might want to wear some BLAZE ORANGE during hunting season, then the idiot won't think YOU are an idiot.
All four of us (myself and 3 kids) were wearing the required 400 sq. inches of blaze orange- hats, and jackets ..... didn't stop the doofus from bringing his gun up to look at us- he saw movement down in the timber and probably desperately wanted it to be a deer .....

Quote:
How should I react ......?
I dunno...... I yelled at him not to point the gun at me......

Don't do this.

You can set your gun up any way you see fit ..... my opinion of it does not matter a hill of beans ...... but if you go walking around looking for deer through your scope and muzzle sweep somebody, they will be convinced you are unsafe idiot.

Condoning this in public says a lot about you, too ..... as does telling me it was my fault because I was not hearing blaze orange (even theough we were) ......

Good Night!
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Old October 24, 2013, 08:39 PM   #55
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Standerd, scout has too much eye relief. Looked at one today.
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Old October 25, 2013, 11:06 AM   #56
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This is the answer for post #49:

I also struggled in deciding on what type of scope to install. It came down to one thing; how was I going to use this rifle. I purchased this rifle more as a fun shooting gun. I have done a great deal of bench rest/long range varmint shooting and the big boy is not one of those type rifles. So, in selecting a scope, I wanted to match the rifle with something that was more for fast target acquisition and not precision shooting.

I also worried about the required eye relief, because there is a great deal of drop in the stock. That is why I went with the 1.75 to 6 Leopold. The eye relief is from 3.5" to 4.5" based on power setting. Anything below 2 power I could leave both eyes open and treat it more like a red dot scope.

What I learned from shooting the Big Boy standing is that even with the scope, it is very well balanced. It is just a "natural pointer" type of rifle and not the same as target rifles were cheek melt to the stock is important.

I went with Med scope rings and if I had to do it over, I might go with low rings and take the back sight off. Not that ring height has anything to do with accuracy. But as is, it is a high sight plane for sure. It is almost like a flat top AR with a high scope mounted in terms of the "hover" above the stock.

I do feel that, with practice, it will become more natural pointing feel and you will find your own fit in time.

I did document the first 50 shots of my Big Boy in a youtube video. It shows both of the Henry rifles shooting. Please notice how much faster the shots go on the last 10 shot string. The last part is with both of us standing and the target is 74 yards away. Try hitting a plate size target 20 out of 20 times, in that time frame with 2 bolt action rifles.

BTW: I do not feel that putting a scope on "cripples" a lever action rifle. Watch the video, does it look like we are shooing with a Crippled rifles?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPibYdBcPk
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Old October 25, 2013, 11:53 AM   #57
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My question is do you have to lift your head up off the stock to see thru the scope.
If you do find this to be the case, there are comb raising kits available to correct the problem:

http://www.beartooth-products.com/sh...sing-kits.html

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...prod15487.aspx

http://www.accu-riser.com/products/A...mb-Raiser.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/860...a-usgi-leather

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...-prod1870.aspx
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Old October 25, 2013, 08:21 PM   #58
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Do you often have animals standing still at archery distance painted orange while you sit in a fixed position? If that's the case, then no, your rifle's not crippled by your scope. Could you not have done just as well with iron sights?

Real nice shooting though, 12" stationary targets at less than 100 yards from a stable position with a scope.

In the end it's YOUR money and YOUR gun and the only one who has to be happy with it is YOU. If you want to put a 50x telescope on your rifle to shoot 30 yards away, go for it. If you're okay with a chin weld and you want a scope on a lever gun to kill zombies with...more power to you. Everything is a compromise and if it suits your needs, great.
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Old October 26, 2013, 12:27 AM   #59
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As amazing as it would seem on the internet there are many proven facts being disputed by folk that just plain don't know any better here in this thread.

For SHOOTING a properly mounted low power scope is better 100 times outta 100 vs. open sights. Low light, moving game, near or far, makes no difference. Hands down they are better and that holds true even if your comb isn't just right for it. Sight and game on one focal plain and a brighter, clearer picture being most of the advantage. That'd be why more and more shotguns are seeing scopes for deer hunting in shotgun only states like here in Iowa. As a matter of fact, I dare say that most slug guns I see are wearing scopes nowadays.

That doesn't mean that some mall ninja that sticks some 50mm monstrosity w/ thoose crappy see-thru rings on his lever gun has a better sighting system. He doesn't. But truth be known it's not much worse than stickin that same POS on a boltgun for 99.9% of hunters. Hunters today are way over scoped as a general rule.

What hurts lever guns and their close range cousin the slug gun when you scope em isn't in the shooting, for that is helped a great deal, it's not in the handling either. It is in HOW THEY CARRY. It's bulk in the wrong spot. Right where you hand wants to go as you move thru the woods. This can be helped by going with a scout set up but that raises other issues that make any effort to do so a waste of time, cost and effort IMO.

Still, the benefits of a good optic set up far out way the bulk for most shooters. Don't believe me? Go out and find ya someone who served over seas in the sand box or asscrackastan and see how many of em were cussing their optic set ups. Answer? None. And a lot of their shooting was spitting distance in old crappy houses.

My favorite scope range for slug and lever guns is 1.5-4x but most look like they were pushed outta the back end of a bear. Too keep with the classic looks of a lever gun nothing is better than an old Elpaso Weaver K2.5 or K3.

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Old October 26, 2013, 02:17 AM   #60
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I'll have to disagree L. Don't confuse lack of ability on a shooter's part with a mechanical device being better. If that were true then you wouldn't see competitve shooters using 1x optics or mounting irons on canted bases for close up shots while running low powered optics. Also, if your comb isn't right then your cheek weld isn't going to be right which means that scope is going to be off. Sure, you can offset that with practice and train yourself to get a repeatable chin weld...If you don't believe that then why are those same slug guns you're talking about made with raised combs? Also, it's hard(er) to mount a scope low on most levers if it has anything larger than a 20mm objective, unless you remove the rear sight or mount it far forward. A lot of people don't like the scout set-up because they are not familiar with it.

And, as far as soldiering, I've seen many guys drop an acog in Iraq in favor of a reflex sight. Really, a burris fastfire would be the perfect sight for a lever. Low, extremely light, easy to use and forgiving of cheek placement...
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Old October 27, 2013, 11:05 PM   #61
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http://www.skinnersights.com/mini_shot_27.html

I keep coming to this site because he makes great peep sights for levers and I'm hoping he makes one like I requested one day. That mini shot caught my eye so I figured I'd pass it along.
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Old October 28, 2013, 12:26 PM   #62
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mount a scope on a CF lever rifle? ABSOfreakinLUTELY!

Marlin (new) Model 1895 .45-70 Weaver 2.5x POST reticule.
Marlin 336 .30-30, Weaver 1.5x POST
Browning BLR .308 WIN 3x9x duplex

Ruger No.3 .22 Hornet 3x9x standard crosshairs
Ruger No.3 .45-70 Weaver 2,5x POST
Ruger No.1 .375H&H 1.5x4.5x duplex
(they are lever guns, just not repeaters)

I don't consider my guns crippled. I consider them improved. And I don't particularly give a rat's hindquarters about how you feel about how MY rifle looks.

I also (oh the horror!) put oversize Pachmyr grips on most of my Single Action revolvers.

All for the same reason, I can shoot them better that way.

I did read somewhere that some folks are putting those "moon scopes" (50mm objectives or even bigger) on the old classic Marlin/Win .30-30s. Not for any long range shooting, not for stalking, but for stand hunting, where the big scope gives a few more minutes of usable light, at the beginning and ending of shooting hours. I've seen plenty of times when, at first or last light your eye can tell its a deer, but not if it is a legal deer.

Its a specialized application for a general woods rifle, but really, what matters most, what works or what you look like?
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Old October 28, 2013, 12:55 PM   #63
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Quote:
Hands down they are better and that holds true even if your comb isn't just right for it. Sight and game on one focal plain and a brighter, clearer picture being most of the advantage.
If your head can't get into the same place (the correct place, with crosshairs/post centered in the scope) consistantly, and quickly, none of that matters, especially on running game or game that shows itself only briefly.

If you have to spend a second finding the reticle and then more time finding the game .... 2 seconds late may as well be never in many cases ..... a scope is only an advantage if it helps make the shot: that crystal clear view of the reticle on the black inside of the scope won't help hit anything ..... I see people spending hundreds of dollars on glass and mounts and won't drop 20 bucks to make sure their gun fits, or spend any time practicing shouldering the thing to find their target quickly.
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Old October 28, 2013, 02:43 PM   #64
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In reviewing the comments made on this thread by the person that stated that installing a scope cripples it, they must either be having a bad thread or he/she is using a troll account to stir things up. I think that he/she was just spouting off outdated dogma from overhearing it somewhere. Or it could just be the alcohol and/or medication talking. But most of things posted by them are really off the mark and not in keeping with the thread.

Additionally, I did take time to research the reviews of the sightmark mini sight on the website that he/she was recommending (post #61 ). First off, it is listed for 20% more there that at Amazon or Midway. It is also one of the poorest reviewed dot sights out there. One site had 15 review of which 8 were the lowest possible mark that could be given. Comments on reviews are "Won't hold Zero", Cheap Mounts, Fell apart after 8 shots, and sent back 3 of them and now the 4th one has failed after 2 shots. Nice recommend, but I will pass.

I am sure that he/she is a good person, but jumps to assumptions and then convinces themselves that they're facts. I suggested that they should do some research, but I am also sure that it will go in one ear and straight out the other.

I am new to lever action firearms, but have over 40 years shooting and hunting experience. But really never had an application where it was the best choice. However, I find the Henry big boy a real fun gun and one that it is easy to teach new shooters on.

I also know that the big boy only comes in pistol calibers and all the talk about hunting on this thread puzzles me. But, I hunt in Idaho and the thought of bringing down our big game here, with pistol cartridge is questionable at best. I personally have harvested over 50 Big game animals in my life and have never had one walk more then 2 steps after being shot. But, I don't take running shots, as most deer and elk around here will stop running after a while, if not when you still have them in sight, at least over the next ridge. If they keep running, then wait for one that will cooperate. I have seen other hunters do the running shot thing, but they mostly miss or hit the hind quarters. Trust me, you wound an animal and it gets away, you will remember it …….often.

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Old October 28, 2013, 05:22 PM   #65
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Quote:
I have seen other hunters do the running shot thing, but they mostly miss or hit the hind quarters. Trust me, you wound an animal and it gets away, you will remember it …….often.
Or at least you SHOULD remember it often...

I, also, don't like to take a shot at a running animal. I've only done it twice, once on a coyote, and once on a deer that was supposedly dead when I walked up to it (too soon after the shot), only to see my "dead" deer leap to its feet and take off. Once I recovered from the shock, I rolled it with the first shot,(which was actually the second shot at the deer), but hit it too far back, behind the ribcage, and it got to its feet and started off again. My third shot anchored it... finally. The most shots I've ever fired at a deer... and my worst performance on a hunt. It taught me several good lessons.... one, I don't want to purposely take a shot at a running animal...emergencies only. two, I can hit a deer when it's running, but can't be sure to put the bullet exactly where I want to. three, don't ever walk up on a "dead" deer immediately after the shot. It was probably just under 10 minutes from the time it dropped to the shot, until I walked up the side of the gully to the deer. It was a high lung shot, and the deer hadn't died yet.

That having been said, I've seen videos of guys that take running shots all the time, and they are amazingly accurate. I suppose practice helps.
But in the immortal words of "Dirty" Harry Callahan..... "a man's got to know his limitations"....
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Old October 29, 2013, 10:08 PM   #66
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Idahosd, I'm curious as to which parts are trolling or alcohol induced? The part about having a proper cheek weld maybe? Or about scout scopes and red dots? Maybe you're offended by the crippling comment because of your extensive use of lever actions?

Ohhh, maybe you like glassing with a loaded rifle and don't care who or what you point your rifle at? Or maybe you think scopes are magical devices and are sold on the marketing hype of them gathering light?

The minishot being mounted on a lever was what caught my eye, since reddots had been brought up in this thread AND skinner peep sights. Since I was looking at what mr skinner had and saw the mini shot mounted I figured I'd pass that along. I didn't go googling reddots or even offer up that sight as being the best reddot available. Unless you know of more places that make low profile mounts for lever actions, you can keep your rehashed amazon reviews to a relevant thread. Or read post #60 where the reddot I DID suggest is. Maybe you could review them after another impressive example of your marksmanship using a scoped rifle at archery distances?

I couldn't care less if you chose to hammer in screws with a saw. You do what you like with your time. But if you're going to be sitting in a stand using a scoped rifle, you might want to use something made for a scope. It doesn't matter what your eye relief is if you still have to bobble head looking for your reticle. It doesn't matter how good you zeroed or what kind of scope you have if you can't get a repeatable sight picture. I'd hope 40 years of hunting taught you that.

Furthermore, since you are ignorent of hunting with pistol cartridges, let me educate you a bit.... Nevermind, I'm a pill popping drunk just out to troll. Here, read this instead you probably don't know who paco kelly is, but use your google fu and you'll find out.

"A better comparison indicator for me, of where a handloaded round is in the scale of killing ability...is to compare it’s standing against other rounds without the over rated muzzle energy figures. If you multiply the velocity times the bullet weight, and then divide by 7000 (number of grains in a lb, it’s the old Keith method) you get a better picture of actual power/killing levels compared to other rounds. 2000 X 275 div 7000 = KS(Killing Scale) of 79 for this 45 long Colt load from the Rossi 1892. A 44 magnum Ruger revolver with a 275 grain (same nose shape) cast WFN bullet at 1400 FPS velocity reaches a level of KS 55, and that’s a heavy handgun load that’s harvests larger medium game very well.

A 30-30 with a 170 gr bullet at 2200 FPS gives a level of power ranking at KS 53.4... ahh yes dear reader, the 44 mag from a long gun really does have more power at 100 yards than a 30-30/170 commercial load. Of course the 44 mag/275 gr. load above from a rifle, at basically the same velocity as the 275 gr./45 long Colt from a rifle has the same killing level potential as the 45 long Colt. There are difficulties with all measuring methods of bullet energy and killing ability since so much more is involved than just velocity and weight...but this works for me when we are comparing the same bullet shape/content and construct with changes in weight or velocity.

The neat thing about this method is you can take the down range velocities all the way out to your longest range and compare them with the down range velocities of other rounds, calibers and see the changes compared to each other. The 45 long Colt at 100 yards has slowed to 1600 FPS and the killing level has dropped to almost KS of 63 from 79. Where the 30-30 load has dropped to 1930FPS to a KS 46 from 53.4.....that should make a few yell ‘foul...can’t be’, but it is! And from my use of these 45 loads in the field for years on large game....I can tell you it is.....! As many gunwriters have stated over the years, a 44 mag or heavy loaded 45 long Colt fired from a rifle is more powerful than a 30-30 at 100 yards....actually they are more powerful than the great 30-30, at a lot further than 100 yards.....

So the next time someone states the 44 mag and 45 long Colt from rifles only has an advantage over the 30-30 under 100 yards...show him the error of his reality. But remember bullet drop with the larger calibers, is more than the 308 calibers ....But that never bothered me....mainly because I started rifle shooting without scopes and learned how to compensate....scopes were far from being seen, much less using them, when we were boys."
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Old October 30, 2013, 12:48 AM   #67
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.45 Colt, 275gr bullet, 2000fps out of a Rossi Mdl 92? Wow.

Wonder what pressure it takes to do that with a .45colt or .44mag size case?

Also wonder what the .30-30 would do at that same pressure?

I've seen a lot of different scales used for comparisons, straight energy figures, Keith's system, Hatcher's, Cooper's short form, even Taylor's "knock down power".

They all correspond to real world observed results to a greater or lesser degree, and can be a useful means of comparison, provided one remembers that they are really all generalities in many ways.

A fine topic for discussion, provided one does not get dogmatic about it, or take other's doubts about their chosen system as a personal matter.

But it is not the topic of this thread, and serious thread drift is one of the things that gets threads closed.

The OP has a "classic" levergun. Lots of folks don't think scopes belong on those kinds of guns. But there are other kinds of lever guns, too.

If you are one of those people who feel a scope doesn't belong on a levergun, is it ALL lever guns, or only those with the classic look?

What about a Savage 99, or a Winchester 88? What about a Browning BLR?
BLRs come in calibers that in any other action type, adding a scope is virtually automatic. Most other action types in those calibers don't even come with iron sights anymore...

So what is it that offends your sensibilities, a scope changing the looks/weight/balance of just certain lever guns? or is it all of them? Its a personal opinion, and as valid as any, I'm just curious.
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Old October 30, 2013, 05:53 AM   #68
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I'd put all my reasonings about scoping a lever in post #31. It has nothing to do with looks and rest solely on function.

We were refering to hunting use of a big boy and it was brought up that they'd never use pistol rounds to hunt with. So I added some info about hunting with pistol cartridges.

And since the BLR was brought up, compare the comb height and design on the blr vs the comb height and design on the henry big boy. The blr's comb is much higher and comes almost straight back compared to the downward slope of the henry's. So yes, with my vague statement towards levers I deffinately fell into the old trap of over generalization. But with the rifles being discussed and traditional styled lever action rifles, I think it is still sound.
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Old October 30, 2013, 12:09 PM   #69
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As I see it, people are painting scopes and lever guns with a broad brush, or a roller, and giving their reasons in calligraphy.

The reasons, both pro and con all apply, in certain situations. None of the broad statements apply fully to all situations.

Certainly, an incorrectly mounted scope is not as good as one correctly mounted. But even a poorly mounted scope (too high, eye relief, etc) is better for a shooter who cannot see the irons well enough to accurately use them. That's one situation, there are lots of others.

The fact that a lot of people are not doing the best job of fitting the rifle, scope and themselves together does not invalidate the concept of putting a scope on a levergun.

Also, from the way some people talk, all leverguns are only for 150yd shots or less, under 100 is better. Certainly, some leverguns are in this category, perhaps most, but by no means all.

Don't say "scopes on leverguns are a bad idea", and point to the guy who mounted the Hubble telescope on his .30-30 as if it was complete justification. Its not. All that does is weaken your creditability.

If you think mounting a large scope on see thru mounts on a Marlin 336 is a poor idea because..., say that, and we'll discuss pros and cons.

The OP said "CF leverguns" and that includes ALL of them.

An argument about a given scope on a .30-30 may not apply when the levergun is a .308, or a .284, or a .243.
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Old October 30, 2013, 01:08 PM   #70
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1) I never said scopes were bad on any lever gun. I said "if I were to cripple a lever gun with any sights but irons I would use a scout scope or red dot". I've already mentioned why and did suggest both a scope set-up and a red dot as alternative sights. Also, "IF I" means for me. It does not mean everyone else, and I did not say "if you" I said IF I.

2) true, any device that makes a gun you cannot aim aimable, is beneficial. But one could also say (as I did) that using a gun that is made for a scope is much better than scoping one NOT made for a scope. Which is, what I've said repeatedly. So Since the BLR IS made to be scoped, it does exclude it from "rifles not made to be scoped", wouldn't you think?

3) I did say that mounting a large scope on see through rings is a bad idea and explained why. I don't know anyone who actually mounted the hubble telescope so I could not give that as an example, I simply said if you wanted to, its your gun so do it. It was never used as an example.

4) sure, there are a very select few lever action rifles that are suitable for scoping and/or long range shots. They are also, generally, made to be scoped which would remove them from "scoping a rifle not made to be scoped". If we were including every lever action rifle ever produced (or semi auto, pump, shotgun...whatever) then there would be no chance for any discussion because anything you say could be wrong for any other rifle. As it were, since the BLR comes set-up for a scope, and henry big boy was the only rifle mentioned in the OP's origional post, it seems doubtful that he was refering to every lever action center fire rifle ever made. Also, as I have just mentioned
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Old October 30, 2013, 01:52 PM   #71
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Re: Lever gun scope

Quote:
Originally Posted by semi_problomatic View Post
1) I never said scopes were bad on any lever gun. I said "if I were to cripple a lever gun with any sights but irons I would use a scout scope or red dot". I've already mentioned why and did suggest both a scope set-up and a red dot as alternative sights. Also, "IF I" means for me. It does not mean everyone else, and I did not say "if you" I said IF I.

2) true, any device that makes a gun you cannot aim aimable, is beneficial. But one could also say (as I did) that using a gun that is made for a scope is much better than scoping one NOT made for a scope. Which is, what I've said repeatedly. So Since the BLR IS made to be scoped, it does exclude it from "rifles not made to be scoped", wouldn't you think?

3) I did say that mounting a large scope on see through rings is a bad idea and explained why. I don't know anyone who actually mounted the hubble telescope so I could not give that as an example, I simply said if you wanted to, its your gun so do it. It was never used as an example.

4) sure, there are a very select few lever action rifles that are suitable for scoping and/or long range shots. They are also, generally, made to be scoped which would remove them from "scoping a rifle not made to be scoped". If we were including every lever action rifle ever produced (or semi auto, pump, shotgun...whatever) then there would be no chance for any discussion because anything you say could be wrong for any other rifle. As it were, since the BLR comes set-up for a scope, and henry big boy was the only rifle mentioned in the OP's origional post, it seems doubtful that he was refering to every lever action center fire rifle ever made. Also, as I have just mentioned
So what was the OPs question. I've lost track. Its amazing how one or two posts can turn into banter ruining someone post.
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Old October 30, 2013, 03:00 PM   #72
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Quote:
Lever gun scope

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone mounted a scope on their Henry Big Boy or any other CF lever gun.
What power did you get.
Pretty simple, really. Lots of folks answered. The rest has just been chatter.
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Old October 30, 2013, 04:26 PM   #73
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Yeh, I know. I going to put a Leupold FXll 4X scope on my Henry BB 357. With my old eyes, the sights are blurry. End of story.
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Old October 30, 2013, 10:41 PM   #74
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Good choice, you will like that scope.
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Old November 2, 2013, 08:19 PM   #75
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