The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 17, 2013, 08:42 AM   #26
longranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2008
Location: Buffalo WY
Posts: 1,056
Current S&W's are competing with Taurus with a lock to go along with it.
longranger is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 09:04 AM   #27
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,857
Are S&W serial numbers still marked on the cylinder face?

If so, does that serial number match the frame serial number?

A little bit of time with a straight edge and you should be able to figure out if the frame is actually bent.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 09:20 AM   #28
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 8,682
Quote:
Are S&W serial numbers still marked on the cylinder face?
Not for a long, long, LONG time.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 09:37 AM   #29
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,857
Didn't think so, but wasn't sure.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 09:47 AM   #30
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,783
Depending what comes from S&W. My next step would be PA State Attorney General, then the local ATF office, and even the PA State police and explain to the ATF the dealer is up to shady business practices possibly passing used guns for new. The ATF are the ones that can find out from S&W which distributor received the gun, then in turn which dealer received the gun. That in itself will answer the question as to new or used.
Just how I would proceed being out of state.
Not being a lawyer, just maybe a federal crime being gun was sent across state lines and possible fraud involved
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, IDPA Safety Officer
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 09:55 AM   #31
Old Stony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2013
Location: East Texas
Posts: 627
I think the more prudent thing to do is just call your credit card company and cancel the sale there and call the gun shop and inform them of your decision. If you tell them the gun was misrepresented and you are sending it back, there is really nothing they can do at that point. You will end up eating the shipping, but the situation will get resolved without trying to involve the legal processes.
Old Stony is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 10:34 AM   #32
Wreck-n-Crew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,376
Quote:
The guy wants you to pay a 10% restocking fee to return firearms.
From the details given that it was reworked by a "supposed Gunsmith" it should still be the responsibility of the seller to settle up with S&W if they claim it was NIB.

Either way I would demand they fix it or send it back themselves for selling you a gun that they gave no visible inspection to or tried to pass off as new.

Your Point is that you did not get a new gun in new finish and working proper working order. If they refuse, you can always take it to small claims.
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!
Wreck-n-Crew is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 11:42 AM   #33
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 8,682
I should think that Smith & Wesson might be interested in a gun shop (of ANY size) that attempts to sell their product as "NEW" if there's a solid chance that is it -far- from new and actually, willfully buggered to some nonsensical state.

There's a chance that Smith & Wesson is too large in size/busy/successful) to be bothered with a small shop that is doing such a thing, but in a more perfect world, they'd be incensed. That revolver is their reputation.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 11:48 AM   #34
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,214
This is the joys and horrors of ordering a gun (online or otherwise). On the plus side, you get to find a gun you couldn't find locally. On the minus side, when things go bad, its tougher to deal with.

If they sold the gun "as is" they its all on you. They sold it as NIB, then you have certain expectations, and so should they.

REPUTABLE sellers usually give you an inspection period. 3 days (from receipt) is common. Personally, if they don't even offer an inspection period, I would buy from someone who does!

How much time has passed since you got the gun? Did you send pics to the shop so they could see the condition?

At this point, the shop that sold it is the main suspect, BUT, they may not be completely responsible. It is possible (remote, but possible) that the shop received the gun in that condition, and never noticed it.

Open box, glance at the gun, verify serial #, put it in stock. Same thing when sold. No reason to closely inspect the finish (or the function), after all, the gun was "new".

ALL we know for certain is that while the gun might meet the technical definition of new (unfired, never before sold at retail) that gun is NOT in "new" condition. Somebody, somewhere, worked on it for some reason, and did a less than flawless job.

Only 4 possibilities, I see;
1) the gun left S&W in that condition (possible, when pigs fly, TV commercials don't count)

2) You did the damage, and shoddy repair, and are looking to scam someone (I take leave to doubt that, only mention it as a possibility)

3) Damage & repair happened at the wholesaler's level, and the retail shop didn't know, and never learned (possible, not highly likely, but possible), and sold you the gun in good faith that it was NIB.

4) Damage and repair happened at the retailer's, and the gun was passed off as NIB. (seems most likely, at this point) 4a) possible that the retail shop owner(s) did not know this happened. It might have been someone in their shop was responsible for the condition of the gun, and never told the owners.

There is little point in involving the ATF, as noted, they care little unless it is a firearms law violation, (which this does not seem to be).

Even if you get a satisfactory result from the dealer, I think S&W ought to know what happened. They might have gotten other complaints about the dealer/jobber...

If the seller basically says "eat it", I would definitely get S&W involved. I would send them the gun for evaluation, and request a full comprehensive evaluation and letter from them with their findings. And I would pay what that cost, from my own pocket, if I had to. A letter from the maker, stating the exact condition of the gun as sold to you, vs the condition it left the factory can go a long way in any claim you could bring against the retailer.

Its not right, but at that point, to me, the principle is more important than a little bit of cash. (and no, I'm not wealthy, currently retired and living on 1/2 of what I made when working)

The firearms industry is full of honest, ethical people. However, there are some who are as sleazy as the stereotypical used car salesman. When we find these, they need to be publicly exposed for who they are, and what they are doing.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 12:01 PM   #35
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 8,682
Quote:
3) Damage & repair happened at the wholesaler's level, and the retail shop didn't know, and never learned (possible, not highly likely, but possible), and sold you the gun in good faith that it was NIB.
Of the possibilities you listed, I would submit that this one is the furthest from likely. Seems to me that true firearm wholesalers are running a mind-numbing level of volume and business and doing something of this nature on one isolated unit, to put themselves at risk of being pulled as a distributor of one of the premier names in the whole of the industry is just absolutely ludicrous.

Although if it was perhaps one single idiotic moron inside the operation that went rogue while not concerning himself with the reputation of the wholesaler he works for, I could see that being somewhat more possible.

Of course, if we look at that sentence directly above, with regard to ONE single guy who chose to go this route for whatever wild reason (to cover his own failure somewhere), it really could be any of the options. It could be one really awful employee at S&W, at the distributor or at the shop that sold it. That would certainly be plausible... and in fact, IMO, seems to be the most likely scenario.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 12:07 PM   #36
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 2,005
I think it's not a coincidence that the majority of guns with finish problems, or canted barrels, seem to end up in the hands of folk that couldn't find them anywhere else but from a dealer online. Makes one wonder if these sellers, because of those problems, either have a hard time selling the gun over the counter FTF, or if it has been returned or refused by other online buyers, and they are hoping that sooner or later someone that has already accepted the gun from their FFL, won't return it. Especially if they are given a hard time and told there will be a restocking fee.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 09:14 PM   #37
Jeremy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 126
I think its possible it could have been a display model but I think that it is more likely that smith messed up. I have contacted the seller and is awaiting his response. I may have be expecting too much from a production gun. (Some would be surprised how much a knife runs for that is truly of high quality.) Though I would expect the firearm to be free of stray scratches at this price point.

How does one go about determining if the frame is bent?
__________________
"Neither justice nor domestic peace are served by holding the innocent responsible for the acts of the criminal." -Senator John McCain
Remington 700 - Ruger 10/22 - Ruger GP-100 - Remington 550-1
Jeremy is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 09:34 PM   #38
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,265
Determining if a frame is bent can be as simple as looking or using a straight edge, or as complex as using very expensive gauges.

I hate to say this, but I think your remark about "expecting too much" shows you are still in denial. There is no way that gun came out of the factory that way. It would be like finding a Cadillac on the showroom floor with a crumpled front end and a twisted frame and being told that it came from the factory that way!

I have no idea how the damage occurred, or who tried to fix it, but if you can't get a full refund, try the PA AG route. (BATFE will not (cannot) help you; they don't enforce the fraud laws or resolve quality disputes.)

If they ask you to return it, make sure you take good clear pictures of the whole gun and the damaged areas, in case they claim there was no damage. They may even claim that you are responsible for the damage, but deal with that if it happens.

I have to note that the problem of buying anything "on the net" is that it is nearly impossible to get a refund if the seller simply stiffs you. It would cost thousands even to initiate a suit and you are at a disadvantage unless you can appear in person to testify.

Please let us know the outcome. We may have some TFL folks in that area who can help.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old October 17, 2013, 09:50 PM   #39
TennJed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2010
Posts: 1,520
Good luck. I would also let him know that you will do everything you can to hurts his reputation (message boards, BBB, online review sites , ect.).

You come across as a nice guy and it seems like you do not want to rock the boat, but IMHO this calls for you to put your foot down. The guy sold you an obviously defective gun. Lets say for the sale of argument it did come from s&w like that (it didn't) he should have sent it back instead of passing it on the the customer.

There is no way around it, this guy took you and you should do what you can to get ALL your $ back, and maybe making this guy think twice about doing this again
__________________
Find out just how tall I am
By jumping in the middle of a river
TennJed is offline  
Old October 18, 2013, 05:25 PM   #40
Jeremy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 126
Alright I got an email from smith & wesson with a prepaid shipping label. I have not received a response from the seller. Should I ship it to smith for them to look at or per sue a refund from the seller? I guess a chargeback is always an option if they wont respond? I really appreciate y'alls advise. Thanks
__________________
"Neither justice nor domestic peace are served by holding the innocent responsible for the acts of the criminal." -Senator John McCain
Remington 700 - Ruger 10/22 - Ruger GP-100 - Remington 550-1
Jeremy is offline  
Old October 18, 2013, 05:42 PM   #41
RussB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 159
It's all been said. Now its up to you
RussB is offline  
Old October 18, 2013, 07:48 PM   #42
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,214
S&W sent you a free ticket to ship the gun? SHIP THE GUN!.

Seriously, if the seller calls tonight and wants the gun, tell him you already sent it to S&W. And send the gun to S&W!

S&W will check it out, I'm sure they want to ensure that it didn't leave the factory that way, and they can tell you what was done, and how. And if it can be fixed (and how much). If the frame is sprung, it might not be repairable. S&W is the best people to make that call.

After they inspect, and inform you, you can decide how best to proceed. Right now, even with good pictures, you can't determine if the finish damage is ALL that is wrong with it. S&W can tell if anything else is wrong with it.

The seller can try and stiff you, its possible. They might try to wait you out. They could still be trying to figure out the best way for them to handle your complaint. A finding from S&W about the gun moves things beyond the "your word only" as to the guns condition. I would think that is a useful bargaining chip, should it be needed.

Given evidence, the seller may make up their mind to make it right with you. They may not, but one should give them the opportunity.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old October 18, 2013, 07:59 PM   #43
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,265
Amen to that. Do it!

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old October 19, 2013, 06:32 PM   #44
Suzygirl
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2013
Posts: 1
Bought a 27 from same dealer-Similar problem

This spring I bought a Classic 27 from Oak Hill via Guns International. I live in Wisconsin. The force cone was extremely rough and the front of the cylinder was scored. Every time you pulled the trigger there were more and deeper gouges. I called S and W and they sent me a label. Ten days later the Classic 27 was back with a glossy dark blue refinished cylinder and a force cone that looked like it came from the Performance Center. You can ask yourslf if this dealer finds problem guns and sells online where you can't inspect the gun before you buy. I would never again buy a gun from someone without having total confidence in them. I buy only locally and from Bud's.
Suzygirl is offline  
Old October 19, 2013, 10:10 PM   #45
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,265
"What happened to that new gun, Pete?"

"Well, boss, I went out to try it and I dropped it, then the Cat that's digging up the parking lot ran over it and scratched it all up and bent the frame and crushed the cylinder."

"Well, it's a new gun, so just swab on some cold blue and stick it back in the box. We'll peddle it to some sucker on the Internet as New In Box which is no lie. But make sure the buyer is far away - I sure don't want him walking in that door with the gun in his hand. It might still work."

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old October 22, 2013, 06:01 PM   #46
Jeremy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 126
Ha! That's almost funny James

I'd rather not have this guy profit off me so I got the guy to respond and give me a return shipping label. Hopefully he wont try to charge me a "restocking fee"
__________________
"Neither justice nor domestic peace are served by holding the innocent responsible for the acts of the criminal." -Senator John McCain
Remington 700 - Ruger 10/22 - Ruger GP-100 - Remington 550-1
Jeremy is offline  
Old October 23, 2013, 02:35 PM   #47
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,214
wait, You're NOT shipping the gun to S&W? or you are?
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old October 23, 2013, 06:06 PM   #48
Jeremy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 126
No I am sending it back to the seller. I'll find someone else to buy from.
__________________
"Neither justice nor domestic peace are served by holding the innocent responsible for the acts of the criminal." -Senator John McCain
Remington 700 - Ruger 10/22 - Ruger GP-100 - Remington 550-1
Jeremy is offline  
Old October 24, 2013, 10:26 AM   #49
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,214
Jeremy, its your choice, and I also would find someone else to buy from.

If you haven't already sent it off, think for a moment. You probably just want things over with, and I understand that. But sending the gun back to the guy(s) that sold you a used, damaged and repaired gun as new, is that really the best thing?

S&W said they wanted to see it. They sent you a shipping label, I would have sent it to them. I feel you should have, but if its a done deal, so be it.

If I were a shady dealer, I would certainly want that gun back, and before S&W got to look at it! Not only will getting it back keep me out of hot water with S&W, I get the chance to sell it again, to someone else!

I hope you can find the gun you want, in the condition you expect. I am sure eventually, you will. I have some guns (admittedly, rare or uncommon ones) that I have hunted for decades before finding one that met my desire.

Good luck to you, and yours.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old October 24, 2013, 09:45 PM   #50
5thShock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2006
Posts: 250
How about this guy's name? After all the entertainment he's provided you don't you think he deserves some free publicity?
5thShock is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12767 seconds with 9 queries