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Old October 18, 2013, 06:23 PM   #1
TXAZ
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Don't think this is right: MG 42 = C&R

I don't think that a WWII German MG 42, being over 50 years old qualifies as a C&R, and can be lawfully owned by a C&R holder. I don't think they can be lawfully imported into the US.

Is that correct? An acquaintance seems to think C&R gets you past Class III. I find that hard to believe.
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Old October 18, 2013, 06:34 PM   #2
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He's right, sort of. He still has to pay the NFA fee (what is it, $200?) but it does not have to transfer thru a dealer (which would mean another $200 fee and another delay.)

Also he can also import the gun himself if it's outside the USA. (there's a lot of paperwork for that) But I don't think there's a way to get it into the registry so that's probably a dead end for machine guns.

I may have some of the details wrong because I haven't really looked into it; the only NFA stuff I am interested in are silencers (illegal in this state even with a tax stamp ) and the Ithaca "Auto-Burglar" shotgun.
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Old October 18, 2013, 08:41 PM   #3
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Most of the MG's in the US today were imported as DEWATs and reactivated during the 1968 amnesty. Prior to 1986, it was legal (though never easy) to import machineguns.

But the designation of a gun as a C&R, either by its being on the C&R list, or under the 50-year rule, doesn't mean that those guns are available. It only says that IF you have a legal, registered Model XYZ, it is a C&R.

I sold some WWII MGs to 03 licensees in adjacent states; after Form 4 approval, I simply put them in the trunk of the car and took them to the buyers' homes. (The Form 4 includes permission to take/ship the gun out of state; a separate form is not necessary.)

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Old October 18, 2013, 10:54 PM   #4
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yeah I'm going to say the guy is sorely mistaken.
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Old October 19, 2013, 12:44 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by tahunua001
yeah I'm going to say the guy is sorely mistaken.
Based on what? As the previous posters already explained, it does qualify as C&R and lets you bypass a class III dealer, it just doesn't get you around Form 4 and the NFA fee.
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Old October 19, 2013, 07:05 AM   #6
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so how about M16A1??? they are over 50 years old. try and claim them as C&R..
bad enough having a AR15 .
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Old October 19, 2013, 07:19 AM   #7
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Based on what? As the previous posters already explained, it does qualify as C&R and lets you bypass a class III dealer, it just doesn't get you around Form 4 and the NFA fee.
Sounds like importation is the deal breaker.

Quote:
But I don't think there's a way to get it into the registry so that's probably a dead end for machine guns.
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Old October 19, 2013, 08:24 AM   #8
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if you are attempting to have it shipped straight to your house then it will not work to give them a FFL03.

as the OP said, his friend thinks that just because it is over50 years old he no longer has to worry about any of the NFA stuff and that is 100% incorrect.
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Old October 19, 2013, 08:46 AM   #9
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so how about M16A1??? they are over 50 years old.
I think you're mistaken. The originally issued M16 is over 50 years old this year (entered service via the U.S. Air Force in 1962). The M16A1 wasn't done until 1967.
It may be possible to acquire an M16 if there are any out there to be had as a C&R, but the A1 version still too young under the 50 year rule.
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Old October 19, 2013, 11:04 AM   #10
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My understanding is the ATF operates under the concept of "once a machinegun, always a machinegun", generally. Even DEWATS are machineguns, just in a special category that does not require tax, license and other rules applied to "live" guns.

It may be other things, C&R, SBR, etc., but if it is a machinegun, then machine gun laws apply, first.

A shorty M16 (select fire = machine gun) is a machine gun under the law, and its barrel length is essentially immaterial.

The exact same gun as an AR-15 (semi auto only) is not a machinegun, its an SBR (short barrel rifle), and different rules are applied.

A 1914 Vickers gun is a machine gun, and well beyond the qualifying age for C&R status. But its a machine gun, and this legal status trumps all others.

I believe your friend is wrong. C&R does NOT exempt a gun from machinegun status and regulations.
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Old October 19, 2013, 01:10 PM   #11
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What about a MP-44? There is also the fact that no one currently makes ammo nor has any been produced for over 60 years. Seems there is a condition concerning ammo supply for c&rs.

A MP-44 would really be a relic. I think that I only held 2 legal MP-44s, but handled more than a dozen MG-42s in the 2 years at a Class 3 Dealers store.
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Old October 19, 2013, 03:12 PM   #12
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How about an M-2 carbine from WWII? I think the problem would be finding a class III willing to do it. Accepting a C&R license is up to the dealer/seller, there are plenty that will not accept a C&R, period, for anything. My guess is most class IIIs will want all the paperwork possible just to protect themselves and preserve the paper trail.
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Old October 19, 2013, 03:25 PM   #13
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If you have the cash, have your papers in order, (Form 4 and whatever else) and deal in person, I don't think it'll be much of a problem. You're a licensed firearm collector and he has a valuable collectible firearm for sale.
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Old October 19, 2013, 03:26 PM   #14
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First, only guns can be C&R, so there is no such thing as a C&R suppressor, for example.

The C&R status allows certain leeway in shipping and sales, but does not change the laws and regulations about what a licensee may do. An 01 dealer with no SOT cannot buy or sell a machinegun (except as an individual), whether or not it is a C&R. But an 03 licensee can receive a C&R item directly (no dealer needed), even if it is an NFA firearm. In that case, the C&R status preempts the NFA status. As I noted, I legally delivered those machineguns to the buyers. (Had I had to cross a state where they were illegal, I would have shipped them.)

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Old October 19, 2013, 10:26 PM   #15
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Thanks for the feedback. I can't see the Feds saying all XXX machine guns cease to be machine guns after 50 years, and think he's headed for Club Fed if he tries it. The blunt question, is there any history or precedent for doing this and getting away with it? Is it possible legally?
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Old October 19, 2013, 11:26 PM   #16
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Why are you so concerned about it? A 60 y.o. machine gun is still a machine gun. It's also a C&R. One doesn't cancel out the other. Machine guns are not illegal, but highly regulated.

If he can find a transferable one for sale, the 03FFL will make it easier to buy, (and I think $200 cheaper) but he still has to do all the paperwork.

I don't think he can import one, mainly because the MG registry is closed. He can import C&R guns that are not MG's -- there's a form for that. I bet it's a painful process tho', especially under this administration.
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Old October 20, 2013, 12:08 AM   #17
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one may not void the other but one definitely supersedes the other and that is the national firearms act.
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Old October 20, 2013, 02:50 AM   #18
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I was under the impression that the BATFE publishes a list of C&R firearms. I seriously doubt that there are machine guns on that list, given the current laws and political climate. But I could be wrong, it's happened once or twice.
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Old October 20, 2013, 08:42 AM   #19
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Section IV of this PDF publication from ATF is entitled "NFA weapons classified as Curios and Relics."


http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fil...elics-list.pdf


That's an older copy, from 2007, and the MG 42 is not on it that I saw, but the MG 34 is, as are 20mm aircraft machine cannons from Germany, Japan, etc...

So there are definitely machine guns on the C&R list.
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Old October 20, 2013, 01:12 PM   #20
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Most of the guns on that list are now over 50 years old, but they weren't when the list was first compiled, about 1970, IIRC. And of course at that time the 50-year rule didn't exist. As it stands, BATFE no longer adds any gun over 50 years old to those lists; there would be no point in it since the blanket rule covers them.

When GCA '68 was first passed, there was no 50 year rule, and the only way to get a gun of any kind designated as a C&R was to petition BATFE (or whatever it was at the time - ATTD, ATD, ATF, etc.- to declare it a C&R. And it had to be something special to pass the test. That is where those "6.3mm Blatz automatic pistol made for the Klotz Emperor's personal guard and bearing the seal of Klotz in gold" entries come from.

(The C&R designation was the result of some heavy lobbying by wealthy and politically influential collectors who had been trading with each other for years and didn't want to have to go through FFL dealers to continue doing so. The result was the 03 FFL and the C&R designation on firearms.)

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Old October 20, 2013, 04:42 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by pcb911
What about a MP-44? There is also the fact that no one currently makes ammo nor has any been produced for over 60 years. Seems there is a condition concerning ammo supply for c&rs.

A MP-44 would really be a relic. I think that I only held 2 legal MP-44s, but handled more than a dozen MG-42s in the 2 years at a Class 3 Dealers store.
Someone must be making ammo for them, they're still in use in some parts of the world. The rebels in Syria have them, for example. Here's some even being fitted to fire by remote control! http://globalmilitaryreview.blogspot...nnovative.html
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Old October 20, 2013, 07:02 PM   #22
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Even a Colt-Browning M1895 "potato digger" machine gun manufactured prior to Jan. 1, 1899 is still considered an NFA weapon.
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Old October 20, 2013, 09:30 PM   #23
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Mike Irwin points to the smoking gun:

......(page 48) "These NFA weapons, classified as Curios or Relics, are still subject to all the controls under the NFA. " And pre 1946 MG 42's are called.
I'll pass this to my friend and suggest his C&R license can't put him in the machine gun biz.

Thanks Mike.
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Old October 21, 2013, 09:50 AM   #24
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Someone must be making ammo for them, they're still in use in some parts of the world. The rebels in Syria have them, for example. Here's some even being fitted to fire by remote control! http://globalmilitaryreview.blogspot...nnovative.html
Privi Partisan still makes 8mm Kurz ammo.

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Old October 21, 2013, 02:06 PM   #25
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IIRC some years ago there was a proposal by BATFE to remove antique (pre-1899) MGs (there were not many registered) from the NFA and the antis went nuts. "Allow millions of machineguns to be used on the streets....", etc. The idea was scrapped.

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