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Old October 5, 2013, 08:38 PM   #26
snuffy
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Gilding metel is not as dense as lead, so the bullets are longer and have more surface area in contact with the bore than traditional lead core/copper jacket bullets of the same weight. The added fraction of the increased surface area decreases peak velocity and slightly increases pressure.

The load data in all my manuals shows gilding metal bullets generally lose 50-100 fps compared to conventional bullets.
The Hornady #8 manual has all their 165 bullets listed on the same page. The GMX, INTERBOND, SPIRE POINT, SST, all 165 bullets. Apparently they don't know the GMX goes slower than the others. Reynolds is exactly right, the bands cut into the sides of the bullets are pressure relief grooves to drop the extra pressure that WOULD result from the extra length the monolithic bullet creates.

Cut some of the driving surface away from the bullet, drops the frIction of the longer bullet, thus also the pressure.
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Old October 6, 2013, 01:43 AM   #27
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Hornady is not going to advertise they are slower. Several of the powder manufacturers website's load data shows they're are slightly slower then comparable conventional bullets. I'm not just talking about Hornady, but monolithic gilding metal bullets made by several other manufactures as well. The difference in velocity was only about 2%. You might lose say 60 fps on a 3000 fps load.

I have not tested these bullets this is just what I've read, so I could be totally wrong.

Either way they're supposed to have excellent penetration and leave a huge permanent wound cavity. If they're better than an SST that means they're very good.

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Old October 6, 2013, 10:39 AM   #28
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Boomer, you might be right about the Nosler e-tip. I went, looked them up, they do NOT have bands cut into the sides of the bullet like the Hornady GMX. I have no experience with the E-tip, I'm primarily a Hornady user.

I did however get some Barnes TSX in .223 while doing a hunting bullet test for an AR platform for hunting deer. The main difference between the GMX, E-TIP and the Barnes is the Barnes are pure copper, while the other 2 are made from guilding metal, a copper alloy. Guilding metal is harder and deforms less while traveling down the barrel. So their drag/friction is also less. Apparently Nosler didn't see the need to make relief cuts in the sides of their bullet.

Hornady wouldn't list the GMX on the same page with their other 165 30 cal. bullets if they created more pressure with the same powder charges listed for their other bullets. Perhaps the resulting velocity IS less, only a chronograph could tell you that.
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Old October 6, 2013, 10:41 AM   #29
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I still think a SST is better. They do great and alot cheaper. If something in testing is just a smidgen better but twice higher is it really better ? Not in my opinion.
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Old October 6, 2013, 11:43 AM   #30
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Hornady wouldn't list the GMX on the same page with their other 165 30 cal. bullets if they created more pressure with the same powder charges listed for their other bullets. Perhaps the resulting velocity IS less, only a chronograph could tell you that.
Often reloading manuals will have 10 different bullets of varying designs on the same page. I guarantee you they didn't get the exact same results with all 10 of those bullets. They all probably performed within a few percent of each other and that's close enough for you to work up a load yourself. That's why you start 10 percent low and work up.

If you look at the Hogdon website they list each bullet individually. They have slightly different results for each bullet.

I guess you can only learn so much from gun rags and manuals. Sometimes you just have to test for yourself.

Quote:
I still think a SST is better. They do great and alot cheaper. If something in testing is just a smidgen better but twice higher is it really better ? Not in my opinion.
I totally agree. I picked SST's over Nosler Accu-bonds because the performance is very similar but the Hornady is cheaper.

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Old October 6, 2013, 02:34 PM   #31
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I still think a SST is better. They do great and alot cheaper. If something in testing is just a smidgen better but twice higher is it really better ? Not in my opinion.
Better how, other than price? Better in that they blow up inside, wreck a bunch of meat,(bloodshot), and most times don't penetrate?

A Hornady 154 SST from a 7mm mag, 50-75 yards, yearling whitetail;



I'm holding just the jacket that separated from the core just under the entrance wound on the shoulder.



entrance side shoulder before removing the chuck portion of the leg. Notice the massive bloodshot,,--worthless meat.



Core of the bullet just barely visible under the fat in the offside shoulder, no exit. He was on the run, piled up in a heap DRT. If you want no exit, bloodshot meat, but to drop in the tracks then the SST is for you.



That's all that's left of the bullet. Total disintegration. Not to mention the shards of lead all the way through the deer. Remaining/recovered weight was 30 grains.

I do NOT cheap out when buying bullets! The ammo is a tiny fraction of a total hunting trip. The performance of a bonded or solid copper bullet is worth a few pennies more per shot.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

139 Hornady interbond recovered from a bigger whitetail buck after being hit in the brisket, the bullet ended up in that back leg, round area. Nearly full length penetration, recovered weight 121.2 grains, expansion .695. Same rifle as in the 154 SST.

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Old October 6, 2013, 03:13 PM   #32
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What would someone think that's going to happen when you shoot a deer or yearling with a 7 MM Mag and esp in a shoulder ?
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Old October 6, 2013, 03:17 PM   #33
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50-75. I think maybe a head shot, maybe a heart shot. I never shoot for shoulders or hams or neck. And just wash off meat, blood just makes it look non edible. It'll be alright. Maybe leave that gun at home and take a 30-30.
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Old October 6, 2013, 05:37 PM   #34
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What would someone think that's going to happen when you shoot a deer or yearling with a 7 MM Mag and esp in a shoulder
----------------------------------
50-75. I think maybe a head shot, maybe a heart shot. I never shoot for shoulders or hams or neck. And just wash off meat, blood just makes it look non edible. It'll be alright. Maybe leave that gun at home and take a 30-30.
You go ahead, shoot the 30-30. We were hunting on an 80 acre field, longest shot could easily be over 400 yards.

I suppose you would have let him go because he was too close? point is, the GMX or Hornady interbond wouldn't make a mess like that SST did, and would have passed through.

Besides, you can't really pick a spot on a running deer. You simply try to make a front-of-the-deer shot.

To each his own, if you want to cheap out, using the SST, by all means do so. I'm just sharing my experience from hunting whitetails for 55 years. Maybe someone else might get some ideas from my post. I really don't care if you agree or not. And you're not wrong for your own needs.

Where the SST shines is if you're only going to be shooting in a bean field at long ranges. Those sleek high BC bullets expand at very low velocities, what you have left at long ranges. Maybe hunt with the thutty-thutty AND an '06 loaded with SST's for long range shots.??
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Old October 6, 2013, 06:15 PM   #35
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I also never shoot at running deer. If I ain't sure of a perfect shot like a running deer. I'll make a loud noise. If he don't stop I'll let him keep going. Too easy to miss or even wound a deer. Just my thinking.
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Old October 6, 2013, 08:23 PM   #36
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Or you could use a round ball. They dont mess up much meat.
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Old October 7, 2013, 08:09 AM   #37
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My nephew took a nice buck with his .280 while using my handloaded 139 Hornady interbonds. Hit was straight on the brisket, bullet was half-way through the back leg round/ham area. Nicely expanded, while making a mess of the heart and lungs.
Betcha it poked a good hole in everything betwixt the heart/lungs and that ham ..... and drug some of that tasty, tasty flavor inducin' ... um, material with it, too!

Ick.

Folks complaining about "blood shot" meat on the ribs and nary a batted eye 'bout pushing poop through the round steaks ........ I'm glad I did not have to field dress that one.

I just really don't understand the need for bonded/solid bullets on whitetail. There just ain't that much of them that needs penetrated. .....and I am positively stumped as to why someone would shoot a deer that is facing them with one of these bullets ....unless maybe they are giving the meat to someone they don't like very much .........
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Old October 7, 2013, 08:22 AM   #38
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Hit was straight on the brisket, bullet was half-way through the back leg round/ham area. Nicely expanded, while making a mess of the heart and lungs.
I often have very short shots at one of my most productive hunting spots, and the shots are often at deer walking straight at me ....... I've shot several that way with my .270WIN and 150gr Sierra Game Kings, started @ 2900 f/sec ...... that bullet is a conventional cup and soft lead core boat tail. At that speed, it enters the front of the chest and disintegrates ...... none of the fragements make it to the abdominal cavity. Deer dies in short order, no poopy mess..... the only downside is that sometimes the lungs/bronchi are so damaged that the windpipe is a little hard to keep a hold on when pulling the viscera out ......

The same spot sometimes also offers longer, "beanfield" type shots ..... where the shooter has time to wait for a perfect stationary broadside shot ..... that same load will punch through both sides of the deer's chest at 450, too.....
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Old October 7, 2013, 08:48 AM   #39
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Hit was straight on the brisket, bullet was half-way through the back leg round/ham area. Nicely expanded, while making a mess of the heart and lungs.
I often have very short shots at one of my most productive hunting spots, and the shots are often at deer walking straight at me ....... I've shot several that way with my .270WIN and 150gr Sierra Game Kings, started @ 2900 f/sec ...... that bullet is a conventional cup and soft lead core boat tail. At that speed, it enters the front of the chest and disintegrates ...... none of the fragements make it to the abdominal cavity. Deer dies in short order, no poopy mess..... the only downside is that sometimes the lungs/bronchi are so damaged that the windpipe is a little hard to keep a hold on when pulling the viscera out ......

The same spot sometimes also offers longer, "beanfield" type shots ..... where the shooter has time to wait for a perfect stationary broadside shot ..... that same load will punch through both sides of the deer's chest at 450, too.....
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Old October 7, 2013, 09:58 AM   #40
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Betcha it poked a good hole in everything betwixt the heart/lungs and that ham ..... and drug some of that tasty, tasty flavor inducin' ... um, material with it, too!
I didn't process that deer, I was on the other end of that hayfield, busy hunting myself. All I got was second hand stories about what they found when processing the meat. Apparently the bullet entered the brisket went through the left side of the heart, left lung, then skipped outside the abdomen around the least rib. Then re-entered the back leg to stop in the ham.

I agree that a whitetail doesn't take much killing, they're pretty frail.

We were hunting on our leased land that is right across a gravel road from a huge public hunting grounds. A little creek runs through it, lots of deer in that creek bottom. When John Q. public goes storming into it, the deer come running out to escape. After our first year, we figured right where to be to intercept them. It was either shoot at running deer, or not get a shot. The above buck was standing, he came to a dead stop right in the escape route.

Buck-rub must have a tree behind each deer,,-- umm I mean a deer behind each tree, if he can be choosy about his shots. We're lucky to see a couple of deer per our very short 9 day season. Because the pressure is intense, the deer are always on the move.
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Old October 7, 2013, 10:59 AM   #41
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Thanks Snuffy for doing an excellent job of describing exactly what I do look for in a hunting bullet!

I can understand going cheap on target ammo, but I'll never understand trying to save even a $1 per round on ammo you may only shoot one of per hunt.
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Old October 7, 2013, 11:01 AM   #42
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Yes sir I do. I have about 30/40 at my feeder every time it goes off. It's about 80 yards behind my house. I've shot more deer out my living room window than most people seen in a season. I don't know how but I'll try to post you a picture later off my game cam.
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Old October 9, 2013, 07:04 PM   #43
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Buck Rub, you hunt a lot like me. No feeder, but a food plot in the back yard.
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Old October 9, 2013, 08:26 PM   #44
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Watching X factor. Will try to post pics tomorrow. Haven't forgot.
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Old October 9, 2013, 08:49 PM   #45
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I always feared that lead free bullets would be too hard for reliable performance on smaller deer. The image Nosler has up on their site shows poor expansion at 1800fps, and does not look like decent performance until 2600fps, I am only pushing 2750fps at the muzzle of my 308 making my effective range very very poor. Unless you are using a cartridge capable of 3,100fps or hunt at very close range the E-Tip seems too hard a bullet. I would like a lead free load but I won't compromise the lightning quick kills Sierra Game Kings give me.
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Old October 19, 2013, 11:12 AM   #46
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Yes sir I do. I have about 30/40 at my feeder every time it goes off. It's about 80 yards behind my house. I've shot more deer out my living room window than most people seen in a season. I don't know how but I'll try to post you a picture later off my game cam
Oh, so NOT fair chase. Doing that in Wisconsin, will get you a huge fine and removal of your hunting privileges.
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Old October 19, 2013, 01:49 PM   #47
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Bet if he lived in Wisconsin he would not hunt over feeders. Thankfully, hunting over bait is illegal in the northern zone of Georgia. I do not fault people for doing it where it is legal. If all your neighbors are baiting, you better be baiting if you hope to see any deer.
What is "fair chase"? Hunting in an apple orchard? Hunting over an oat field?
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Old October 19, 2013, 03:06 PM   #48
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If you want no exit, bloodshot meat, but to drop in the tracks then the SST is for you.
If you want no exit, bloodshot meat, but to drop in the tracks then the 7MM Remington Magnum with soft bullets is for you.

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Old October 19, 2013, 04:56 PM   #49
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If you really want blood shot meat, the Berger Hunting bullet is for you.
Drops them like a train ran over them.
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Old October 19, 2013, 04:57 PM   #50
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What is "fair chase"?

Naturally, one must obey the legalities. But if one is hunting for one's dinner, IMO anything goes so long as it's legal where you are. You're harvesting a resource, and why should you work any harder than you have to? (Fair enough, if you WANT to go out and stalk your dinner, that's fine too; be my guest.)

If you're trophy hunting, though? No. You should have to work for that one.

Then again, what's the difference between laying out tasty feeder bait and staking out a watering hole?

Disclosure: AFAIK I am not allowed to bait where I live. I am required to stalk.
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