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Old September 18, 2013, 12:23 PM   #51
Buzzcook
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MLeake, the OP will be in Europe for a matter of weeks or months not years.

Don't think your multiplication of risk by years is correct. The chances stay the same year after year. It's like flipping a coin the odds are always 50/50 flipping heads 3 times in a row doesn't increase the odds that the next flip will be tails.


As you can see by this report.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/97.835.PDF
The odds of dying in a car crash vary depending on a range of conditions, age sex, time of day etc.

The same would be true of the risks of personal attack in a major European city. One condition that would reduce that risk (imho) would be, being a tourist in areas frequented by tourist, ie the British Museum, Trafalgar Square, Abby Road.

Quote:
Capt Rick Hiott ,,,,,,this started out talking about flash lights......
Flashlights used as weapons.
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Old September 18, 2013, 01:11 PM   #52
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Actually, if the odds of a coin flip are 50/50, then for any given toss they are 50/50.

But, over 10,000 tosses, one would expect to see heads about 5,000 times.

IE, you are changing the math to suit your argument, when the numbers do not support it.

As far as months, not years, then the odds of a crime against person remain very low, yet still twice as high as those of a car wreck in that same short period.

Again, would the OP be paranoid for wearing his seat belt?
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Old September 18, 2013, 01:15 PM   #53
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We're getting badly off track here.
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Old September 18, 2013, 06:04 PM   #54
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Dear Gentlemen:

I think the answer to the question is quite simple.

"What exactly happens when you hit somebody with over 1,000 lumens at night?"

Who knows? Just buy a flashlight with 1,000 lumens power, stand in front of a mirror at night and turn it on ----- wow, you've got your answer!

Long ago, I stopped asking simple questions on this forum because no one could give a simple answer. I'm afraid the majority of those who post answers on this forum would never pass a basic English reading comphehension exam.
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Old September 18, 2013, 08:29 PM   #55
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I see you had trouble with the reading and comprehension test as well, LOL.

Seems to me the OP asked about the affects of various levels of lumens in both continuous and strobe modes as well as noting a whole variety of contextual parameters and then specifically asked for "Thoughts?"

He didn't just ask a simple question, but a serious of questions including an expansive open-ended question.

People get hit with 1000 - 3000 lumens all the time - headlights. Sure, we flinch some, maybe advert our eyes a bit, but we don't shirk down in pain and horror of the amazing power.

I am very confident that the proclaimed lumens are highly exaggerated, though the lights will be quite bright.
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Old September 18, 2013, 09:59 PM   #56
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Yeah, but now add a fast randomized strobe effect. And keep it pointed directly in their eyes.
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Old September 19, 2013, 08:00 AM   #57
Double Naught Spy
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You haven't been clubbing in the last couple of decades, have you?

Since a flashy light has to be kept on your aggressor to be effective, if it will be effective, what are you doing about his buddies?

GB is no different here and it if you look into your stats and delve deeper into the incidents, you will find a lot involve multiples of attackers. What then?

How disorienting will the strobe be on you? Yes, your aggressor will get a lot more of the light, but if 5-10% is reflected back at you because of the close range, you are still getting hundreds of flashy lumens in your face, a level that Surefire considers to be useful as a weapon.

Note that many aggressors will simply attack the light. The light won't stop, but will draw them in violently. You will be holding the light.

So if you are playing the percentage game that for the short time you are in GB that you might be a victim of a crime and want to use a light as a weapon, then consider too that if that happens, probably more likely than you being a victim is the fact that the light isn't going to do diddly-squat. If the light didn't have so many other good uses, then I would suggest YD's Bobby Whistle over a flashlight. At least the whistle might summon you some help.

Anybody here ever attended one of those "fighting flashlights" self defense courses where professionals from the self defense industry give 1-2 days of instruction on how to stop bad guys with flashlight illumination? You know the courses where they teach flashing on the run, flashing from cover, CQF (close quarters flashing), speed battery changes, etc.?

There is a good reason why. Flashlight illumination is not effective at stopping attackers with any sort of consistency or reliability.

Jim, you are considering or have already put way too much stock into the credibility of illumination as a weapon and that could get you into real trouble.

Then there is the issue that all that light doesn't mean a whole lot for all of the daytime attacks. Light, and how people react to it, is relevant to ambient lighting conditions. Headlights don't do a whole lot in the daytime, do they?
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Last edited by Double Naught Spy; September 19, 2013 at 10:14 AM.
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Old September 19, 2013, 08:39 AM   #58
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1,000 lumens shined in your eyes in a dark place will completely blind you for 10 seconds or so, it will take minutes to fully regain your vision. I know, because a buddy accidentally did it to me a couple nights ago with a 1200 lumen light.
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Old September 20, 2013, 01:49 PM   #59
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I wouldn't trust a flashlight to be a blinding tool except at close ranges in the dark. My experience in dark exercises at any distance but close up is that the light effect is trivial in performance. I have tested myself at close up at full dark adaptation with a Surefire and it did set me back. But move back aways and I could still function.

I found the strobes did nothing to disconcert me.
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Old September 20, 2013, 05:18 PM   #60
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Bravo

We finally got the answer.

"1,000 lumens shined in your eyes in a dark place will completely blind you for 10 seconds or so, it will take minutes to fully regain your vision. I know, because a buddy accidentally did it to me a couple nights ago with a 1200 lumen light."
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Old September 20, 2013, 10:57 PM   #61
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Instinct and protective reflex can be powerful things. In the absence of other things, you can still make use of *time*. While a prepared person may easily look into a 150 lumen light and reason through it, a person who is surprised by one will typically turn away, throw hands in front of their eyes, etc. Regardless of their specific physical response, their brain may also take 1-3 seconds to resolve the surprise. In any case, you may gain a couple seconds, and take them out of their violent 'script'.
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Old September 23, 2013, 02:14 AM   #62
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Quote:
Instinct and protective reflex can be powerful things. In the absence of other things, you can still make use of *time*. While a prepared person may easily look into a 150 lumen light and reason through it, a person who is surprised by one will typically turn away, throw hands in front of their eyes, etc. Regardless of their specific physical response, their brain may also take 1-3 seconds to resolve the surprise. In any case, you may gain a couple seconds, and take them out of their violent 'script'.
Three seconds is an eternity if it is wisely utilized. You can escape, disarm or disable (depending on the situation) a threat in that length of time.
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Old September 23, 2013, 07:57 PM   #63
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I'd look at what a flashlight 'says', and what it doesn't 'do' ....

.... before focusing on what it does do .... and then having to realize there were many other things you should have done, and plenty of things you now should and must do.

Used in conjunction with your eyes, a light can help 'tell' you things. It also can 'tell' potential assailants a few things. And, likewise, it can 'tell' others in the nearby vicinity a few things. But it will never, on its own, 'speak' with such authority as to end an attack already decided upon and initiated.

And so one will ask, what were you doing before, and what will you be doing after, flashing a light?

I'd focus on gathering intel on everything you plan to see, and make planned and deliberate choices about transportation to and fro .... so you aren't found where you hadn't planned to be, and you know where the bad would have you go.

Must be one heckuva lady. I hope she knows how much you've been thinking about this trip, and why, and that she has or will develop an appreciation, rather than a resentment, for it.

Get your maps, a 300+ lumen light with a tailcap, keep the cell phones charged, enjoy yourself, and stay safe!
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Old September 24, 2013, 02:15 AM   #64
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Re: What exactly happens when you hit somebody with over 1,000lumens at night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesecond View Post
And so one will ask, what were you doing before, and what will you be doing after, flashing a light?
I think this is the crux of it. If you're relying on the power of the light to save you, you're gonna be disappointed. However, I agree it can be useful against one (maybe two, situation favoring it) attackers to give you the time to make your next move, be it flight or aggression.

I've got a Fenix PD32 that I like. It has 5 powers, up to 740 lumens, I believe. I hit myself with a quick burst in the mirror after being in the dark for a minute (eyes weren't fully acclimated). I could tell exactly where the light was and could probably fumble my way to it, no matter it being a little painful. However, I had it on less than a second and when it went off, my world went BLACK. If someone was at the light point, they had a good second, even under my prepared condition that they could've moved to the side and been gone or on me without me seeing.

Now, there's several tactics you can employ and an even more powerful light will cause more pain, but a determined attacker will likely be able to close the distance to the light. If that's all you're relying on, it won't matter that he's a bit dazed-he's on you and angry. Have a plan of what your action is immediately after you turn it on.

Personally, if I'm that worried about an attack and can't carry a legitimate weapon, I'd take some practical-focused self-defense/hand to hand combat classes.
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Old September 24, 2013, 03:09 PM   #65
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Quote:
Yeah, but now add a fast randomized strobe effect. And keep it pointed directly in their eyes.

That hurts, try it in a dark room after the eyes adjust. Will be very disorienting.
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Old September 24, 2013, 05:59 PM   #66
tomhy1911
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This might sound dumb but cant u ship it to your hotel so its their when you arrive and mail it back home when you leave?
I didn't know flashlights got so bright, I gotta have one!
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Old September 25, 2013, 05:23 PM   #67
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Stick the thing in checked baggage and you will be fine getting it in.

If you somehow end up being questioned by a copper once in London, do not, under any circumstances, indicate that anything you are carrying is for self defence. Although proportionate acts of self defence are as legal as in the US, any act that indicates preparation of violence in advance, even defensive violence, is considered 'offensive', and can get you arrested.

Sure this has been said, but to reiterate, do not carry anything with a crenelated bezel and do not wander the streets with a 4D Maglite or similar.
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Old September 25, 2013, 09:44 PM   #68
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Quote:
Sure this has been said, but to reiterate, do not carry anything with a crenelated bezel and do not wander the streets with a 4D Maglite or similar.
Really? What is wrong with crenulated bezels? You can certainly buy such flashlight (torches) in GB with crenulations. The crenulations are an auto windshield glass breaker. They you to place the light bell down with it on such that it will still emit light and not overheat.

A brief review of British flashlight forums on carrying just about anything for self defense makes it a weapon and hence illegal. The crenulations don't make it illegal. The number of batteries don't make it illegal. The lumens don't make it illegal.
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Old September 26, 2013, 01:39 PM   #69
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All fully true DNS, however "offensive" is in the judgement of the copper on the street, and crenelated bezels are often advertised as additions to make a torch more useful for defence. Sure you can argue it is a glass breaker, might be fine, but it might get you arrested. The law specifically criminalises carrying anything modified or adapted for defensive purposes, so crenelated bezels do represent a risk in this sense. You can buy all sorts of things that would be illegal to carry without lawful reason, which does not include just wanting to or protection.

Big Maglites are the same. They are rubbish as torches by modern standards, unless upgraded, however they can make excellent clubs. Copper might not have a problem, but wandering London on foot, he really might.
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Old September 26, 2013, 01:44 PM   #70
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Leave the flashlight at home and take Liam Neeson with you.
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Old September 26, 2013, 01:45 PM   #71
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Well the man is from the UK!
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Old September 26, 2013, 09:51 PM   #72
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What happens? They are lit up. If you are unlucky they shoot it.
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Old September 27, 2013, 06:54 AM   #73
Double Naught Spy
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I can hear the catch phrase exchange now...

"Why do you carry such a bright torch?"

"Because a bobby is too heavy"
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Old September 27, 2013, 09:24 AM   #74
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We seem to have exhausted this subject.
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