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Old September 21, 2013, 05:08 PM   #1
Rikakiah
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Won't be buying Winchester ammo again...

Not sure if this is the right firum...

Awhile back, posted about some brand new white box 5.56 I bought that looked like they were reloads (minor dents in the casings, bullets not perfectly seated).

Anyway, FINALLY got a chance to take my brand new DDM4 to the range. Out of the first 20 rounds, 2 of them were misfires. The second even jammed so hard I had to get a range officer to help me clear it. He even commented how the ammo looked like reloads. I left the range without doing any more shooting.

I still need to break down the rifle, but pretty sure it's not the culprit. It's rated for 5.56 and can't expect Daniel Defense slipped up. There's a few scratches on the bullets, but no major marks that I'd expect from how hard the one was to extract.

I know it's Winchester's cheap ammo, but their quality control is seriously lacking.
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Old September 21, 2013, 05:14 PM   #2
Indi
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Where did you purchase this ammo? I've shot wwb without a problem, I'm not doubting you. My 20" ar prefers 55gr Remington ammo.
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Old September 21, 2013, 05:25 PM   #3
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What are the chances someone put less than stellar reloads in the boxes, and sold them as new ammo?
I once bought what was supposed to be new, factory ammo, in factory boxes, and later discovered one of the boxes was full of empty cases.
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Old September 21, 2013, 05:36 PM   #4
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Something definitely seems awry here. I would rather buy Winchester than any of the major brands as I have had less problems with it. I would suspect tampering of some sort after it left Winchester.
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Old September 21, 2013, 06:25 PM   #5
Rikakiah
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I think I got it from the gun shop I trust the most, if I recall (only 2 other places I might have and they're both pretty reputable, too-least reputable option being Cabela's).

Normally, I pop the box open and look at a few rounds at the store. This gun shop actually encourages me to do so (which is why I may have gotten these elsewhere, as I'm not sure how other stores feel about me opening boxes).

I'll try to get some pics posted if I can figure out how.
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Old September 21, 2013, 07:11 PM   #6
Rikakiah
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See if this works. The 2 are the misfires. The row is the remaining stock to show the dents and different bullet seatings. However, one of the primers on the misfires is barely nicked and the other definitely isn't as punched as the fired brass.
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Old September 21, 2013, 08:06 PM   #7
iraiam
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It looks like the primers are still crimped in. Those being the misfires I would say you may have an issue with the rifle, although I would check the case length of the misfires just to be thorough. I think it would take a case length that was way out of spec (too short) for the firing pin to miss the primer like that.

You say it was hard to extract, as in physically stuck in the chamber and difficult to pull out? or the extractor would not grab the groove? if it would not grab it then the case length is likely way too short. I experimented with this when I was converting some 223 cases to another caliber, approximately .020 of shoulder setback on the 223 and an AR will push the round into the chamber and the extractor will not latch in the groove.

If that's genuine Winchester ammo, I would say it's the worst I have seen, I generally prefer Federal ammunition over Winchester, but I don't specifically avoid it.
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Old September 21, 2013, 08:28 PM   #8
Rikakiah
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The rifle is basically straight from the factory. Could it possibly not be oiled enough? Although, I assumed that would cause more of a cycling problem? Perhaps it did, and the bolt wasn't far enough forward? I admit I didn't take it apart and oil it any before I shot it.

As for extraction, it was physically stuck. Safety was locked (in fire position) and I couldn't pull the bolt back. Finally pulling the bolt back (with assistance) extracted the round normally.

One more bit, which was probably unwise on my part, but both of these misfired twice. The first time, they were interspersed in a 10 round magazine. Upon misfire, I cycled them out and continued firing. I then put them by themselves in a magazine and tried again. Both misfired again, the second one becoming stuck. I believe I tried the forward assist before firing at least one of these times (I was a bit stressed at this point, so not 100% sure).

Also, I'd miscounted-it was 2 out of 30, not 20 (I still have 10 unchambered Winchester from the 40 I started with).

Semi-related, I'm planning to get into reloading down the line. Since I'm unsure of the condition of this brass, should I save it?
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Old September 21, 2013, 08:48 PM   #9
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Won't be buying Winchester ammo again...

You say you used the forward assist? That throws up a flag. Are you loading these one by one? Are you riding the charging handle?

I had dents shows up in primers that look similar to the one just from the bolt closing during cyclic operation.

It is standard practice to disassemble a weapon and clean it especially when its brand new. Please don't take this the wrong way, but especially if I had sunk my cash into a DD I would follow the instructions in the manual for teardown and cleaning to the T. Some manufacturers, maybe all if them will put a preservative oil on the guts to keep rust at bay and all the parts coated until they are shipped. Cleaning this initial preservative off in my opinion is essential.

But of course this is all just my opinion, no way is it intended to be condescending towards you
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Old September 21, 2013, 09:20 PM   #10
Rikakiah
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I didn't notice anything about cleaning/lubing it before firing in the manual (could be there, I just didn't see it). I knew it was "best practice", though, so really should've done it. Just got a bit lazy.

As for the FA, I remember pushing it before firing once (just don't remember which time). It was more a check sort of thing to make sure it was seated than any real reason. I didn't push it hard or get any additional movement or sound from the bolt.

I'm fairly certain I didn't ride the charging handle. Only time I would have would've been after a misfire, as I used the bolt release on fresh mags.

Oh, and all those dents were there fresh from the box. The bullets in a row have never been chambered in my gun. On the misfires, the black around the neck and the scratches on the bullets (if you can see those) are the only new marks I saw.
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Old September 21, 2013, 09:38 PM   #11
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Won't be buying Winchester ammo again...

Yeah that's pretty crazy seeing those dents. Although I wouldn't hesitate to burn them up it certainly shouldn't be acceptable for them to ship that out if the plant.

The two misfires are interesting though. Have you or do you have access to a headspace gauge? It seems as though the headpsacing is either way off or your bolt isn't fully rotating into position I had a similar situation one time while yote hunting, I forgot to load my gun until we got set up, so I committed the terrible sin of riding the handle. Knowing it wouldn't lock I smacked the FA a few times. Well it wasn't enough, had a "misfire" because of it. Pin just smacked the primer but didnt detonate. I would check to ensure your bolt is fully seating each time. Might be a lube issue, you never know.
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Old September 21, 2013, 10:03 PM   #12
Rikakiah
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I don't have ready access to a headspace gauge.

Well, it's all oiled up now. Won't be able to shoot again for a couple weeks, though. Might take it apart again before then and do a wipe-down/relube, too.

The safety being locked/jammed would seem to indicate the bolt wasn't fully forward, wouldn't it? Although, that bullet was definitely stuck, so I just assumed it was deep in the chamber...

From the primers and what you guys are saying, it definitely sounds more like the gun, likely a lube issue. Just weird it happened twice on the same two rounds. Perhaps the brass wasn't sized properly and is a touch bloated making it a tight squeeze, either giving enough friction to slow the bolt enough to not fully seat it or just being too big regardless how hard the bolt pushed it?

Maybe I'll be able to get out to my favorite gun/reloading shop and they can measure the heck out of the rounds. They have decent pricing on Federal ammo, too (have a couple boxes already and their brass is polished to perfection).
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Old September 22, 2013, 12:32 PM   #13
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WWB is one thing I will never willinging buy for my guns. I've seen a number of WWB picture threads that show squashed, mangled and otherwise unserviceable brass and very uneven bullet seating depths. I don't buy winchester anything anymore. ATK or bust.

with all that said. those two misfires are light strikes. you haven't properly lubed your AR, they need to be run pretty wet. you could more than likely refeed them and they would go off. the little dents and dimples hurt nothing, but a very slight bit of accuracy. they blow back out when your brass fire forms. those are a good example of budget box seconds.
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Old September 22, 2013, 12:39 PM   #14
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The primer on the left looks like it was barely struck. Considering you didn't clean the rifle from the factory, I would look there as the likely source. Clean the rifle and try again.

That said, the ammo does look pretty dented, although that often happens when the ammo gets cycled through an AR-15. Did you cycle those through before taking the photos?
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Old September 22, 2013, 01:54 PM   #15
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I have used Winchester WB ammo plenty of times and never had a problem.
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Old September 22, 2013, 02:27 PM   #16
ripnbst
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Won't be buying Winchester ammo again...

I've seen some dented brass before and it never bothers me. As was mentioned they typically get pushed out when firing.

I buy WWB when I can find it as its cheap. Never had a problem with any but I've only been shooting for 5 years.
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Old September 22, 2013, 06:57 PM   #17
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That's pretty sloppy factory ammo in my opinion. Another good reason to reload. Cant say Ive ever seen new ammo look that bad.
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Old September 22, 2013, 07:36 PM   #18
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Can't really blame the ammo for the light primer strikes I don't think, but if it weren't for the primer crimps I would think it was reloads.
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Old September 22, 2013, 09:22 PM   #19
Rikakiah
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Re: Won't be buying Winchester ammo again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by raimius View Post
Did you cycle those through before taking the photos?
The two by themselves, yes, as they were the misfires. The group of several, no. However, even the 28 that did fire looked as bad straight out of the box. The only one I was really more concerned about was one that had a scratch also in the pit of the dent. Figure it might weaken the wall a bit.

But yeah, going with a poor lube job. Except I'm still a bit concerned about the full-on jam. Definitely gonna see if I can get it measured before attempting to fire it again, grease or no grease.
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Old September 23, 2013, 07:50 AM   #20
Art Eatman
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Look: New factory ammo, straight from the box, should be in perfect shape, no dings, dents or scratches. Bright and shiny.

Stuff that looks bad from the git-go? Something happened, somewhere, after the factory produced its usual right-at-perfect ammo. Somebody played games with that box of ammo.

Hard for me to believe it's anywhere near a Winchester problem.
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Old September 23, 2013, 09:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
I didn't notice anything about cleaning/lubing it before firing in the manual (could be there, I just didn't see it).
It always blows me away when someone posts about malfunctions in a brand new firearm, then admits that said new firearm was not cleaned or lubed before use. That stuff in new guns is not lubrication, it's grease or preservative applied at the factory to prevent corrosion. It does not provide lubrication - just the opposite. It will gum up the inner workings of many firearms. On the flipside, I've opened up brand new guns that dame from the factory bone dry. I wouldn't expect them to function properly either.

Seriously, it seems like 95% of posts on this website regarding malfunctions in new semi-automatics are because of the failure of new owners to properly clean and lubricate their new firearm.

People, you have to clean 'em and lube 'em before you shoot 'em! Otherwise you are just asking for trouble. Imagine what could happen if a glob of preservative grease was blocking the barrel.
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Old September 23, 2013, 10:52 AM   #22
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Won't be buying Winchester ammo again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikakiah View Post
The two by themselves, yes, as they were the misfires. The group of several, no. However, even the 28 that did fire looked as bad straight out of the box. The only one I was really more concerned about was one that had a scratch also in the pit of the dent. Figure it might weaken the wall a bit.

But yeah, going with a poor lube job. Except I'm still a bit concerned about the full-on jam. Definitely gonna see if I can get it measured before attempting to fire it again, grease or no grease.
I don't know that I'd consider them exactly misfires... I guess maybe, but when the primers aren't struck by the pin to detonate the powder its hard to say the ammo is bad.
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Old September 23, 2013, 02:02 PM   #23
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I have 1200+ rounds of WWB 5.56 on hand from three different lots. I just pulled one box from each lot and checked them in my Dillon headspace/case length gauge and checked the overall length with my calipers.

Roughly one third of the rounds I checked had dings/dents like in the OP's pic. Every round I checked was within spec for OAL and were OK acording to my headspace/case length gauge.

That said, I don't have the OP's ammo here to check. Also, you buy cheap ammo, you get cheap ammo. In the last ten years I have seen bullets seated upside down, rounds without primers in the pocket. Bullets that were pushed down into the side of the case. And a few that looked perfect but produced squibs.

Check your ammo before shooting. Properly clean and lube your guns. Be safe!
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Old September 23, 2013, 07:25 PM   #24
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too-least reputable option being Cabela's
I quit buying from them even though they had a store close to me. I went to buy 2bxs of .45GAP The handed me .45APC. Bought a "new" garmin GPS two days later I had a problem turning on and called Garmin. I was informed by Garmin the serial and model numbers stated it was a "refurbished" unit and I should return it to Cabela's.
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Old September 23, 2013, 08:28 PM   #25
tahunua001
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so a person made a mistake and grabbed the wrong ammo, not like that's the first time it's ever happened.

and you failed to look at the fine print of the ad before you bought? again, nobody's fault but the guy with the cash. cabelas.com lists the reconditioned and new units separately just so that such misconceptions do not occur. in you are in the store, looking at the rack, handling the product then it is your responsibility to make sure that you are buying what you want, not the sales staff. for all they knew, you were aware it was a refurb and that's what you wanted.


and with all that said, this topic has nothing to do with cabelas, it has to do with WWB ammo being less than high quality.
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