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Old September 15, 2013, 08:21 AM   #1
TXAZ
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Should some cops not be given guns, or get more training?

It was 1 year ago that NYC cops shot 9 bystanders with 16 shots near the Empire State building. Now it looks like they hit 2 bystanders in 3 shots this weekend. Reports seem to indicate that both times they failed to hit the intended target.

Here's a reference from this weekends event:

http://nypost.com/2013/09/15/cops-ac...to-subdue-man/

Serious question: There has to be a reason for this, is it the heavy NYPD trigger, a lack of training or range time, or anything else some of you closer may have an idea on?
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Old September 15, 2013, 08:47 AM   #2
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Maybe not shooting at an unarmed man would be the way to have avoided these innocents being shot.
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Old September 15, 2013, 09:04 AM   #3
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I think it requires tighter standards on firearms skills and more time at the range Say 100-200 rounds per month. most of it in combat action type of drills not just bulls eye shooting. If they can't pass they lose their job.
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Old September 15, 2013, 09:56 AM   #4
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No amount of range time prepares you for this. Yes, training is good, and it develops muscle memory, aids in hand eye coordination and familiarizes you with your weapon. But it cannot duplicate the stress of a real life situation.

In this situation you have two fairly green officers, a person who is possibly on something and appears bent on some kind of suicide. In this case one of them should've deployed their Taser while the second backed them up with their firearm. BUT it's easy to Monday morning quarterback any situation, none of us were there. And you have witnesses in the crowd yelling, "he's got a gun!". What would that do to your mind at that time?

We would all love more range time. Well, most of us would. But in this era of budget crunches, police department layoffs and ammunition shortages, who's going to provide for it? The taxpayer who already thinks we get paid too much to just drive around and eat donuts? And don't think pds aren't feeling the ammo shortage. While some major departments MIGHT have a stock pile, most don't. Most of us would love more force on force type traing as well. But departments are shorthanded, can't budget in the pay for coverage or the training just isn't available.

There is more to it then just cops are poor shots. How many rounds are fired in combat per confirmed kill? It's definitely not 1 for 1, and innocent folks get hurt there too. These two cops made a mistake in their initial choice of force option, we can all see that now. But can anyone here speak for what they saw at the time of the incident? Yeah, these two need more training,and this highlights that. Just don't be so judgemental until you know the whole story and have been in their shoes.

Me? 5 year leo with one officer involved shooting involving bath salts. Murder/suicide by cop, and I believe most of you would not have wanted to be there.
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Old September 15, 2013, 10:01 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXAZ
It was 1 year ago that NYC cops shot 9 bystanders with 16 shots near the Empire State building. Now it looks like they hit 2 bystanders in 3 shots this weekend. Reports seem to indicate that both times they failed to hit the intended target.
I'm pretty certain that in the first incident they killed the guy -- who had just murdered a former boss or co-worker ... if we're thinking of the same incident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXAZ
Serious question: There has to be a reason for this, is it the heavy NYPD trigger, a lack of training or range time, or anything else some of you closer may have an idea on?
It's panic. IMHO it's a function of recruiting too many marginal candidates without good screening to weed out those who won't react well in a crisis situation (and I admit that I don't know if there is anything that adequately screens for this). Then they don't provide force-on-force training so the officers can learn to control the panic and the adrenalin dump that occurs when faced with a gun pointed at them.

In this case, they shot at an unarmed man. He was lucky -- they missed. But it sounds like he was trying to commit either suicide by vehicle or (subsequently) suicide by cop. The reaching into his pocket and simulating a gun could have come straight from Clint Eastwood in Grand Torino. Who knows if the officers thought they saw a gun ... someone yelled "He's got a gun," and that's enough to set off a big percentage of cops.

It certainly seems that, if they ultimately brought him down with a taser, the taser should have been the first weapon deployed. But ... I wasn't there.
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Old September 15, 2013, 10:03 AM   #6
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NYPD weapons/firearm training....

To my limited knowledge, the sworn officers & detectives of the NYPD only qualify once per calendar year. That's due to $$$/budget issues.
The police union(s) fought hard to get new semi-auto duty pistols to replace the model 10 service revolvers and J frame snubs.
The Glock NY+2 trigger(mandated by the NYPD) is considered a poor choice by most trained shooters/armed professionals. It's heavy & hard to use. I've heard the same problems with the NYPD version of the DA only SIG P226 9x19mm.
The chiefs do not use the newer DAK(Double Action Kellerman) format & the older pistols are not that great.

Training should be a individual issue IMO. Like a pilot or a engineer or a doctor who keep improving the skill sets, sworn LE officers should strive to improve their shooting skills with the assigned weapons or at the least, be component with them.
Budgets & training doctrines nationwide are being scaled back.
Sworn LE officer & training expert; Massad Ayoob wrote in a recent gun press item how the Florida Highway Patrol(FHP) started to allow troopers to carry patrol rifles(ARs in 5.56mm) if they buy them with private funds.

The NYPD has approx 34,000 sworn personnel. The marksmanship will run from IPSC level or Tier One "operators" to 20/30 year street cops who never clean their sidearms or follow the SOPs.
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Old September 15, 2013, 10:24 AM   #7
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I thought they hit the guy last year?
If I were a cop I would worry more about BBPs than bullets and knives.

My expectation is not that law enforcement improve their shooting, but rather they stop claiming to be "highly trained professionals" when it comes to shooting. The training afforded to LEO does not make them so. The ones who are do it on their own time and usually on their own dime.

I am sure most police do spend time and money improving their skills, but not their firearms skills. How does ones ability to shoot figure into promotions? It is a miniscule part of most LEOs jobs and is neglected for that reason.

When I have seen unarmed police in foreign countries they are usually not respected at all. People literally ignore them.
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Old September 15, 2013, 10:27 AM   #8
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Clyde, Illinois only mandates once a year qualification as well, and it's just 30rds. My department provides the ammo for that and that alone. I provide my own duty ammo, and my own AR. I provided the ammo for that certification and duty use as well. I make less then $13 an hour. I also got turned down for active shooter training and advanced DUI training, because I had to work. My situation is typical of most departments around me. I train, and , shoot as much as I can. My wife, also an leo, is in the same boat in a different department. She makes less then I do. It's a good thing we don't do this for the money.

I wish folks could see it from the the officer's pov, it might just change an opinion or two.
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Old September 15, 2013, 10:55 AM   #9
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So long as the NYPD would rather spend the money on settlements than for training, this will continue.
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Old September 15, 2013, 10:59 AM   #10
TXAZ
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Dang Clyde and others,
I'm hanging out with the elite cops & SO guys then. They shoot often and have to shoot 90% at 50 yards, or are pretty close to 1:1 ratios. I believe in Desert Storm the average was >100K per kill, pere David Grossmans book.

In a crowded area, I can't see NYPD allowing this behavior to continue, as a couple of guys who CAN shoot could probably take over a block in Manhattan until the real SWAT guys show up.
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Old September 15, 2013, 11:17 AM   #11
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Tom, on the one hand you are right, but on the other training won't stop this. In the event last year several people were supposedly hit by pass throughs. Now, we can all talk about knowing your target and what is behind it, force on force training to reduce panic, etc; but we all know if you fire a round in Time Square there is a VERY good chance a bystander will be hit, even if the target is also hit.
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Old September 15, 2013, 11:30 AM   #12
TXAZ
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Quote:
but we all know if you fire a round in Time Square there is a VERY good chance a bystander will be hit, even if the target is also hit.
Frangible maybe as an option?
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Old September 15, 2013, 11:31 AM   #13
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It happens in Charlotte NC too(police shooting at unarmed folks that is), just last night in fact. Apparently officers gunned down a man who had just been in a car crash.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...98E0AT20130915

A quote from the article says it all.

Quote:
"Our investigation has shown that Officer Kerrick did not have a lawful right to discharge his weapon during this encounter," the police department said in a statement.
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Old September 15, 2013, 11:37 AM   #14
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Re: Should some cops not be given guns, or get more training?

Mrray said it best.

I also agree agencies should be more strict on their policies regarding officers failing qualifications on the range.
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Old September 15, 2013, 12:16 PM   #15
TXAZ
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Dang MrRay!

Quote:
I make less then $13 an hour
Dang. If you are not gun averse , take a look at what Austin TX is paying, if you would. If willing to move, at least double your $13
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Old September 15, 2013, 02:21 PM   #16
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Cops have a tough job to do, they deserve more training and more respect. That being said, our local Sheriff dept has quite a few road patrol officers that cannot shoot for crap. They barely make the once a year qualifying score and as pointed out that is bullseye shooting. Its a whole new game when someone is shooting back. There is very little money in the budget for ammo and or over time pay for them to qualify. Yep over time pay because they do not get scheduled to qualify during regular working hours because they are short handed and cannot pull officers off the road. So when they get into a shooting or gun threat situation some of them are simply not prepared for it. They do the best they can with what training they have. They want to go home to their families at the end of the shift, so it is hard to put the blame on the officers. Their is a lot more to the job than driving around for an eight hour shift.
This brings up another point, if you are a cop and your life can and many times does depend on your marksmanship then don't more cops go to a shooting range and work on their shooting skills ? The sportsman's club I belong to has many members that are cops and I see them on the combat range many times shooting their own ammo for practice and marksmanship. They say they would rather pay for their own ammo than wait for the dept to supply it.
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Old September 15, 2013, 02:37 PM   #17
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There is some things that just can't be trained for. A shoot out with adreniline boiling through your veins is one of them. When I went through the academy the top shooter of the class who also made police expert marksman(and edged me by just a few points) could shoot perfect scores on qualification on command. About a year later he and another officer were involved in a shooting. My friend fired most of his pistol magazine at a subject also armed with a pistol and the other officer fired I believe 5 shots with a rifle. My friend missed every shot from 30ft. The officer with the rifle hit all shots fired with a line thigh and up. At such close range the officer could have made the shots on paper blind folded. In the real world things are much different.

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Old September 15, 2013, 02:47 PM   #18
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They shoot often and have to shoot 90% at 50 yards, or are pretty close to 1:1 ratios. I believe in Desert Storm the average was >100K per kill
Battle is a lot different than the civilian world. Cops don't often use suppressing fire to get their job done.

I'm not really sure that accuracy training is the remedy for this problem. Perhaps the department's money would be better spent on teaching cops when to use their firearms, and more importantly when not to shoot.

Someone said earlier that the cops would have been better served by the use of a TASER supported by the other cop's gun just in case; I think that's the type of information that should be fed to the cops. Getting them exposed to as many situations as possible in training, and teaching them how to handle those situations.

That's still money that the department has to spend, but I imagine it would be less than paying for ammo and range time.
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Old September 15, 2013, 02:49 PM   #19
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It seems that I recall reading somewhere that in an actual situation your accuracy will drop by at least 50%. I can't recall what the standard is here in PA but it's not all that hard. Sadly I saw a long time Constable That couldn't make the standard anymore. The instructor was really sad to tell him to go home and practice some more and try again.
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Old September 15, 2013, 03:35 PM   #20
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Taser folks seem to forget that the cops thought the suspect was drawing a gun - which appears to have been an impression the suspect was actively trying to give - and that Tasers are not the tool for dealing with firearm-armed suspects.
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Old September 15, 2013, 03:54 PM   #21
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In New York, I would guess this is related mostly to the political issues. People like the mayor want the best of the best protecting himself, but on the average street, they just want one on every corner....training, weapons that they need, support, training, that is all to be scrutinized during budget review...and denied. When the AD's pile up go to the gun maker and make the guns harder to shoot.

Frankly, I'm surprised the received Glocks at all. Likely that was the low cost provider...besides the have no maintenance, right? If an officer complains, he can clean it on his own dime.

As for shooting bystanders, who knows why it happened...certainly a 12lb trigger ain't helping me put rounds on target...
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Old September 15, 2013, 04:01 PM   #22
Glenn E. Meyer
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Sorry, folks - I don't see this as a L and CR issue.

It is a shooting mistake and thus not for this subforum.

Closed.
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