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Old September 14, 2013, 03:21 PM   #1
ClydeFrog
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Heckler & Koch going under?....

I saw a media item that HK is now $168,000,000 USD in debt & may go under soon if they can't secure a few new military contracts.

Im fond of the HK45 compact(LEM) & the P2000 LEM but I won't buy any HK weapons if the firm is starting to circle the drain.
I thought something was up when HK moved from NOVA(north VA) which is pricey to AL & Georgia.

Any other TFLers know any inside scoops?...
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Old September 14, 2013, 05:05 PM   #2
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Where was this "media item" ?
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Old September 14, 2013, 07:01 PM   #3
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They landed a $185 million dollar contract and the debts have been restructured. They don't seem too worried about it. Buy all the HKs you want...... They are great guns.

http://www.guns.com/2013/07/23/heckl...tract-inbound/
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Old September 14, 2013, 08:41 PM   #4
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H&K's finances and solvency are the subject of this thread. Snark about the brand in general, or about the Germans in general, will be met with deep hurting.

Posts have been deleted accordingly.
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Old September 15, 2013, 12:31 AM   #5
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While there may very well be more consolidation in the firearms industry the HK brand carries a lot of value and isn’t going anywhere. Now, there could be new owners or even mergers with other companies, but I suspect we’ll be lusting after their line for a long time. I hope…
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Old September 15, 2013, 06:36 AM   #6
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They should start making American market guns in the states and separate the
German military products arm and American civilian sales.
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Old September 15, 2013, 06:46 AM   #7
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I don't agree. When I want to buy a German made gun, I want it made in Germany, not the US.

This is what SIG-Sauer has done and I guess my brand new SIG-Sauer buying days are over if they have stopped importation as well.
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Old September 15, 2013, 08:27 AM   #8
Bartholomew Roberts
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The Bundeswehr recently released a report that the G36 rifle has accuracy issues due to the plastic barrel trunion that can appear at temps as low as 80F - so you don't even need to shoot the rifle to get zero shift. They also noted groups as large as 20-24" at 100m after just 90 rounds.

The same report also slammed the P8 pistol. Apparently HK has been aware of these design deficiencies fir some time and has engineered fixes for them but the German government continues to buy the original design.

That report may have sparked the money trouble rumors.
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Old September 15, 2013, 08:45 AM   #9
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I had heard those issues appeared after long strings of automatic fire. Do you have an article stating such? I would like to see it.

Thanks
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Old September 15, 2013, 11:23 AM   #10
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How is a companies customer service reputation not related to their long-term market feasibility? How'd the, "We make government contract guns and civilians can take it or leave it," approach work out for Colt?

It is bad business for companies to rely entirely on contracts that are highly political, especially when there is no guarantee they will even be there b/c the equipment isn't really broken.
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Old September 15, 2013, 11:54 AM   #11
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How is a companies customer service reputation not related to their long-term market feasibility?
While there may be some correlation, I've not seen causation reported. While there has been no shortage of complaints about H&K's perceived arrogance towards the civilian market over the years, I've seen little proof that this has affected their finances.

If you can prove that, we'll consider letting this degenerate into an "OMG did you see the one where they loaded the bullits backwards" thread.
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Old September 15, 2013, 12:30 PM   #12
Bartholomew Roberts
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The H&K article appeared in Der Spiegel magazine. A summary translation and English discussion can be found here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/153...h_the_G36.html
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Old September 15, 2013, 12:45 PM   #13
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Heckler and Koch cannot make most weapons stateside because of importation laws set under G.H.W.Bush. H&K produc great firearms that are used by many militaries, LEO's and other three letter organizations. But they were kind of screwed by OUR government about importation of their components unless for the government. Go to HKPRO, I assure the employees there will explain everything is good in the HK world.
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Old September 15, 2013, 01:03 PM   #14
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Thanks for that link. I had only seen the older article.
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Old September 15, 2013, 01:06 PM   #15
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Its funny to read the some of the comments on the article talking about the G3 and they shouldnt have gone to the g36. Sounds like something I have read before haha
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Old September 15, 2013, 07:43 PM   #16
johnwilliamson062
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Quote:
Heckler and Koch cannot make most weapons stateside because of importation laws set under G.H.W.Bush.
It isn't that they can't make it. They can't IMPORT it.
Glock has been manufacturing in the US for about a year. When things cool down I bet they bring their 380 to market in the US.
IWI opened a plant in the US so they could sell some of their SMG models(9mm Tavor included I believe).
A half dozen other manufacturers or more have done the same.
From this I can only assume HK doesn't care about US civilians or even US gov't contracts. At least it isn't a priority with their current limited financial liquidity. Maybe that is all it is an if they get a little better financially they will follow everyone else's lead.

I don't see how ignoring a huge growing market that already has demand outstripping supply doesn't affect a companies bottom line. At the rate US gun ownership is increasing, led by female and liberal owner increases, ignoring the US civilian market is just foolish. If HK had met demand for their pistols in the US market, how could that not have put them in better financial shape? HK pistols ARE hot in the us, despite their arrogance. One might say "it isn't bragging if you can back it up."

What if the G5 also flops? "All your eggs in one basket."
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Old September 16, 2013, 05:54 AM   #17
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Rumors are they are tying to start making the G36 stateside. The problem is that Hk has thousands of dollars of equipment to produce their "German Steel" and other proprietary stuff. As far as Hk not caring about civilians, that's a crock. The very best customer service I have had was with Hk over a lost part in the mail. They continue to make some of the finest firearms used today. No worries about them shunting their doors, although I did hear about a crazy woman who wanted to pour cement on their roof... Lol
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Old September 16, 2013, 08:32 AM   #18
ClydeFrog
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HK; US customer service....

Im not a HK owner & I hold HK to a higher standard than most brands.
But, I would say the US customer service does seem lacking.
In the past few years(2007, 2008, etc), I would contact HK & get a current product catalog.
Since the firm relocated to GA & AL, the customer service office seems to have gone down. HK no longer sends out print catalogs to individuals, .

The articles I read stated the new HK contracts won't affect the US office but I've heard the same story from other companies in serious economic trouble too.

Heckler & Koch has a few US military contracts(Mark 23 .45acp, MP5 SMG, etc) & a few large LE agencies like CBP(US Customs & Border Protection) & the US Border Patrol(P2000 LEM).
They should be in the black with the huge upswing in US gun sales but with retail prices that run from $850.00 to $1200.00 USD, the HKs are only for a select few.
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Old September 16, 2013, 03:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
From this I can only assume HK doesn't care about US civilians or even US gov't contracts.
Maybe, just maybe it's the other way around. I've tried to like HK handguns. But, they appeal to me about as much as a Hi-Point. In fact, most HK handguns look like a cross between a Glock and a Hi-Point. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they work good enough. You know, if they still made the sleek P7 (and eliminated that stupid squeeze-cocker) in different calibers, capacities, etc. I'd be willing to part with $1,000+ for one, or maybe more. But, with Sig making super-accurate gorgeous guns for about the same price as HK.....WHY HK? Even Tanfoglio, former maker of the EXCAM 25, has stepped up their game and make some of the nicest looking, most accurate, CZ knock-offs around. Some day, they may even offer good customer service.

There is a place for unattractive guns - just not in the $800+ market. HK is in a very awkward price-point for the style of handgun they produce. I think their sales are sorely reflecting this.

Last edited by Skans; September 16, 2013 at 04:04 PM.
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Old September 16, 2013, 04:25 PM   #20
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Funny, I think Sigs are ugly, and like, and own some HK's. The squeeze cocker on the P7 is an excellent part of the design. Different strokes.
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Old September 16, 2013, 04:37 PM   #21
ClydeFrog
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P30....

At a local gun show at the fairgrounds with many tables & displays, Id say the HK P30 9x19mm & .40 were one of the best grip(in both left & right) designs I checked.
The PPX pistol is almost like holding a hairdryer, .
Ergonomics is important if you are selecting a duty weapon or a pistol for extended shooting.
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Old September 16, 2013, 06:01 PM   #22
CharlieDeltaJuliet
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I had an Hk 416 extended quad rail miss delivered by FedEx. I was using the rifle in a 3 gun competition that weekend. This fiasco happened on Friday. Hk had a new rail on my doorstep Saturday morning with time or me to sight it in. They have been nothing but great to me. The catalogs are out of print most of the time. They have no problem sending them, just usually they are out. I have two or three from earlier this year. I have yet to be let down by Hk or Sig Sauer, until they do, they will have my business. I own four of their rifles and two handguns. They were worth every penny.
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Old September 19, 2013, 03:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
a few large LE agencies like CBP(US Customs & Border Protection) & the US Border Patrol(P2000 LEM)
That contract expired several years ago. No more P2000s are being purchased by CBP. No more UMPs, either. What CBP has now is it.

FWIW, HK was open to suggestions and demands when the P2000 was selected. Glock, was not.
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Old September 20, 2013, 01:27 PM   #24
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I sort of get the point about comparing Glock to HK on taking requests for guns, but they also sell a totally different product.

A glock is a cheap gun that is easy to use. If you can teach someone to load bullets in the magazine the right way they can pretty much shoot a Glock and that is Glocks market. Their ability to grab that market makes them somewhat of a standard, so a lot of people who might prefer a more complicated/custom/whatever gun will go with a Glock to have the standard and that helps their sales also. Two of my three best ? gun friends? also own Glocks. Most of the people I know who have more expensive guns also own at least one Glock, usually in 9mm. The most likely pistol mag for me to scrounge somewhere? Glock 9mm. As big as the CBP contract may have soundeed, to Glock it probably wasn't. Offering a variation off their "standard" in order to sell a few thousand pistols probably wasn't in the cards.

HK is way outside the price point required to hit the mass market like that.

It s worth noting that brands like HK almost never die. They may go away for a while, but someone almost always buys the rights and produces something under the name in the long term. I would be very surprised if there isn't something being marketed under the HK brand up until the point firearms are finally rendered obsolete by something else. I'm predicting lightsabers.
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Old September 20, 2013, 02:36 PM   #25
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P226r dak? P229r dak?....

If the US Border Patrol & ICE/CBP officers are no longer obtaining contract HK P2000s in .40 or 9x19mm, what are they switching to? The SIG Sauer P229R/P226R DAK?
I know DHS's US Coast Guard & the US Secret Service switched to the P229R DAK series. Federal Air Marshals used P229Rs in .357sig but to my limited knowledge, they contracted to get new SIG Sauer P250s.

The FFDO(Federal Flight Deck Officer) program used the Heckler & Koch USP Compact(.40S&W) in the LEM(law enforcement modification) format but I think the entire plan was cut due to budget issues.

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