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Old September 12, 2013, 08:47 AM   #26
RetiredMajor
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RetiredMajor, there is a big difference between saying the clerk made choices that reputable trainers would not recommend, and being a keyboard commando / tactical ninja who thinks they could do better, as you put it.

[...]

Just because a tactic works in a given instance, that is no reason to think it is generally sound.

Example: an ex survived a high speed car wreck because she was not wearing a seat belt. Passenger side of the Camaro she rode in was completely crushed; she flew out of the car and had her impact softened by a hedgerow, and only shattered some leg bones and had her foot torn around backwards (all surgically repaired, with multiple pins).

Because not wearing a seat belt resulted in her survival in that instance, is not wearing a seat belt "good tactics?"
I never said his tactics would work in EVERY situation, why would anyone ever say that? Real world confrontations are dynamic. This one was close, fast and left little time for thought. The clerk's INSTINCTS were right on and his actions served him well. If you want to play scenarios all day, you'll have to excuse me from that, I consider most of it a waste of time. [...]
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Last edited by pax; September 12, 2013 at 09:24 AM. Reason: keeping on topic
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Old September 12, 2013, 09:06 AM   #27
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Saw this on Fox News. The robber was lucky. The clerk had every right to send him to meet his maker.

If the robber had raised his firearm, it likely would have ended bad. Also seemed like the criminal would have had the drop on him.
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Old September 12, 2013, 09:17 AM   #28
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Some very thought-provoking posts here. Would love to see everyone stay on topic and not get dragged into off topic arguments or snarkfests.

Thanks!

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Old September 12, 2013, 09:29 AM   #29
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Anytime a "no-shots-fired" ends a bad scenario is a good thing. No doubt in my mind that the clerk would have stopped the BG should it have escalated.
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Old September 12, 2013, 11:19 AM   #30
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Posted by RetiredMajor: The clerk's INSTINCTS were right on and his actions served him well.
I don't know about his instincts, but his judgement was that he would be able to effectively stop the robber had the robber aimed his gun at him. Most of us question that judgement.

We now know that the clerk was never in any real danger. But he did not know that at the time.

The clerk is very fortunate that he did not harm anyone. Had the robber had a real firearm, one or both persons may well have been killed or seriously injured.

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Posted by Onward Allusion: No doubt in my mind that the clerk would have stopped the BG should it have escalated.
I do not share your confidence.

If by "should it have escalated" you mean that, had the robber had a real firearm and had he decided to shoot, consider that all he would have to do is fire from the hip. The defender would have had to detect a slight change in the way the gun was pointed, react to it, and shoot.

Undoubtedly he would fail to get off the first shot, and even if he did, it is likely that the robber would have been able to fire anyway.

There is an easy and inexpensive way to test everything but that last point: Airsoft guns.

The question is, had he possessed a real firearm, would the robber have fired? No one can know, but LEO friends of mine have told me that meth heads usually have no fear and no ability to reason, and that they seldom surrender. I have spoken to officers who have chased and shot them. In one instance, a perp opened fire on his family when they asked him to give up. One did give up--a red laser in his eye convinced him.

We live among five counties with numerous meth labs. I don't know anything about the situation in Marionville.

We have spoken of the clerk's luck. Turns out that much it had to do with the fact that the robber was not really armed.
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Old September 12, 2013, 02:58 PM   #31
colbad
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I would have also liked to have heard the audio to better assess the threat. However, if he felt his life was threatened then he acted appropriately. Also, had not the clerk engaged the aggressor, the aggressor would most likely have taken the clerk's FA as well. I believe his initial actions were appropriate.

From my 22 years LE experience I would say that tactically the clerk erred by giving up the tactical advantage. He nicely delayed the aggressor's FA coming on target opposed to trying to "out draw" him, but should not have given up the tactical advantage. Once the clerk had the drop on the aggressor he could order him to release and drop the gun or shoot him. Based upon the circumstances shooting him without warning would have been appropriate. Allowing the aggressor to back off with the FA gave up the tactical advantage and presented an opportunity to the aggressor to re-engage at any point. This opportunity could have forced a gunfight with an uncertain outcome or jeopardize bystanders caught in an unnecessary gunfight.

The deflection of the FA was nice and smooth as was the draw. I wonder if there was a round in the chamber or the safety came off with the draw? These are all important considerations that need to tactically happen at the same time. I am always bewildered by people who do not carry a round in the chamber. One other point, is that a contact shot to the head often results in significant blowback of bone, brain, blood which can jam a semi-auto. Of course the one contact shot would have done the job, it potentially could put the FA out of service if it was needed to engage a second aggressor. The last point is that anyone who has ever trained for a FA "take away" knows you need to be close. Although some distance would have been more ideal I am not sure it would have permitted the clerk to deflect the draw of the aggressor.

Last edited by colbad; September 12, 2013 at 03:16 PM.
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Old September 12, 2013, 03:17 PM   #32
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Posted by colbad: Once the clerk had the drop on the aggressor he could order him to release and drop the gun or shoot him. Once the clerk had the drop on the aggressor he could order him to release and drop the gun or shoot him.
Yes, but while he is waiting for the robber to decide....

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Based upon the circumstances shooting him without warning would have been appropriate.
Yes, as brutal as that sounds, based on what we understand the clerk to have known at the time, that is true.

Based on what we know now, everyone is fortunate that he did not.

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Also, had not the clerk engaged the aggressor, the aggressor would most likely have taken the clerk's FA as well.
That's a good point. It is usually recommended that clerks comply with the demands of armed robbers, but the presence of the openly carried firearm, while it helped with the speed of the draw and while one would have expected it to deter most robbers, made that an iffy strategy at best.

But persons under the influence of methamphetamine do not reason clearly.

Had the robber been armed and high, and had he ignored the deterrence of the gun in the clerk's holster, drawing and firing as quickly as possible would probably have been indicated.

I do not think that sticking the gun in the robber's face was a good idea.
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Old September 12, 2013, 03:23 PM   #33
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IMO, the clerk could (and should) have kept his weapon in a more advantageous position by keeping it in a retention/shooting position and not thrusting it at the BG, as opposed to trying to open up physical distance.

This would have aided retention, had it proven necessary, and minimized chances of fouling (as described by colbad) or being knocked out of battery, if he had needed to fire.

I also wonder if the clerk thought to keep an eye open for possible accomplices.
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Old September 12, 2013, 03:35 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by MLeake
IMO, the clerk could (and should) have kept his weapon in a more advantageous position by keeping it in a retention/shooting position and not thrusting it at the BG, as opposed to trying to open up physical distance.
I agree. And the fact that the gun used by the criminal in this case turned out to be fake just reinforces my impression that the clerk is very lucky to be alive. Things may have turned out very differently had the criminal been armed with a real gun. The clerk grabs the robber's gun at first but the robber pulled it away from him as the clerk drew his weapon. At that point the criminal could have raised his gun and started firing and I don't know if the clerk could have reacted quickly enough to avoid being shot.

When I first saw this video a few days ago I remember noticing that the robber gave up very quickly after the clerk's gun was drawn; even though he had regained control of his weapon he gave up and went away. Since the robber turned out to be high on drugs at the time, I wonder if he wouldn't have given up so easily if he had had a real gun?

This is by no means a criticism of the clerk; I can only hope I would be as level-headed as he appears to be if I were put in the same situation. That said, there's nothing wrong with analyzing his tactics and attempting to learn from them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by colbad
I am always bewildered by people who do not carry a round in the chamber.
I am too. This is a perfect example of a situation where you may need to draw and fire with one hand. Carrying without a round chambered basically renders your firearm useless in many situations, especially close-range encounters where you might need your other hand to fend off an attacker.
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Old September 12, 2013, 05:40 PM   #35
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Given that the clerk NEVER controlled the robber's gun, I would have to agree that had the gun been loaded, then the clerk likely would have been in a world of hurt.

As I noted, the clerk did well against a non-determined robber who apparently wasn't determined, in part, because he knew he didn't have anything to shoot with. It was bluff.

Quote:
I also wonder if the clerk thought to keep an eye open for possible accomplices.
This is not reflected by the video. He appears to track the robber exclusively the entire time of the video.
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Old September 12, 2013, 07:13 PM   #36
LIBERTY
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My "training" would have kicked in immediately and the robber would have been shot repeatedly until my gun was empty!!!! Nothing to think about nothing to ponder just defend myself the best way possible and the best way in this situation was to shoot the bad guy. The clerk is a very lucky person.
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Old September 12, 2013, 08:01 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by LIBERTY
My "training" would have kicked in immediately and the robber would have been shot repeatedly until my gun was empty!!!!
Just out of curiosity, what kind of training advises you to empty your entire magazine (or cylinder) at the threat? Say you're like me and you usually carry a Glock 19: Would your training tell you to shoot 16 rounds at your attacker, even if he was down and incapacitated after the first shot?
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Old September 14, 2013, 10:59 AM   #38
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Good discussion, but it looks like the subject has been well covered.
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