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Old September 3, 2013, 02:37 PM   #26
FALPhil
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The CMP gets it rifles from the Army, the Army (or any other government agency) is exempt from the EO.
Kraig, that is a misleading statement. Executive orders are not law. Executive orders are operational directives on how the executive branch is run. GOvernment agencies are exactly who executive orders apply to. How it affects the citizenry is that the executive branch has the only legal authority to conduct certain activities, such as enforce import/export regulations, collect levies, and so forth.

That an EO is a law is a common misconception, started under Jimmy Carter, expanded under Bill Clinton, and all the time promoted by the Eastern Establishment Press. Executive Orders always have to have foundation in the law and cannot be contrary to the law.
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Old September 3, 2013, 03:41 PM   #27
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Nonsense. The Army (last I heard) is part of the Department of Defense. The DoD is part of the Executive Department, which is under the President. So is the Department of Justice, which is over the BATFE, and the FBI which operates the NICS check system.

All of those take orders from the President, and are subject to Executive Orders. I don't know if an EO could be used to stop BATFE from issuing FFLs or to stop the FBI from doing NICS checks, but trying to do either would create a real kerfluffle.

So the idea that BATFE, or the FBI, or the Army, or CMP, could or would override an EO is silly. It would be like the office boy telling the CEO what to do.

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Old September 3, 2013, 07:46 PM   #28
tahunua001
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FAL PHIL,
the exec order explicitly states it bans the importation by anyone NOT a government agency so this exec order CAN'T apply to government.
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Old September 5, 2013, 06:58 PM   #29
FALPhil
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FAL PHIL,
the exec order explicitly states it bans the importation by anyone NOT a government agency so this exec order CAN'T apply to government.
tahunua, I think you need to go back and research a little. Executive Orders are not mentioned in the constitution, therefore they do not apply to the people. The are an internal mechanism for use in managing the executive branch. Because they are not a specific and enumerated power, they cannot apply to "anyone".

How this affects "anyone" is that the agency/department which has authority for the activity mentioned in the EO has to abide by it unless overridden by Congress, or an exception is made in a subsequent EO. Curiously, if an agency head violates an EO, there is no provision for adjudication for the violation. The worst that can happen is that the agency head is fired.

So, to sum up, if an EO says that a class of firearms cannot be imported, the agency with authority to grant import licences is prohibited from issuing licences for that class of firearms. That is all the EO means. The way it affects "anyone" is that "anyone" can no longer get a license for import.

It is a fine distinction, and a functional equivalent of legislation, but it is easily overridden by other branches of government with just a little effort.

Frankly, I think there is a case to be made that most EOs since Gerald Ford are patently unconstitutional.
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Old September 5, 2013, 09:20 PM   #30
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Executive Orders are not mentioned in the constitution, therefore they do not apply to the people. The are an internal mechanism for use in managing the executive branch.
While you're right about executive orders, what were issued by the President were executive actions.

Essentially, the President doesn't have to do much of anything. Under 925(d)(3), the ATF can make the determination on their own authority.
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Old September 5, 2013, 10:24 PM   #31
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Tahuna, a government agency is comprised of many "anyones." Corporations are also comprised of many "anyones."
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Old September 6, 2013, 12:29 AM   #32
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Essentially, the President doesn't have to do much of anything. Under 925(d)(3), the ATF can make the determination on their own authority.
The funny thing is, if you keep reading, 925 (e) says otherwise, at least for the M1 Carbine. 925 (e) says:

Quote:
Attorney General shall authorize the importation of, by any licensed importer, the following:
(1) All rifles and shotguns listed as curios or relics by the Attorney General pursuant to section 921 (a)(13), and
921 (a)(13) is simply the definition of "Collector"

The curios and Relic list, includes this tidbit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATF C&R List
All Original military bolt action and semi automatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946.
M1 Carbine falls under that description. M1 Rifles were made into the 50s, but many would be covered.

Unless there is something else that says otherwise, I am at a loss to how this is legal.
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Old September 6, 2013, 03:07 AM   #33
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I see the CMP as being like the Post Office... started out as run by the government (DOD) and then privatized by Congress.

The law that Congress passed also authorized the CMP to sell surplus .22 and .30 military rifles ammunition and parts.

http://www.odcmp.com/Comm/publications/ ... port12.pdf

I don't know if the POTUS can unilaterally issue an executive order stopping them since I assume this was a bill back in 1996 that was passed by Congress and signed into law by the then POTUS (Clinton).

36 USC Chapter 407, Subchapter II - CIVILIAN MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM

36 USC § 40728A - Recovery of excess firearms, ammunition, and parts granted to foreign countries and transfer to corporation

(a) Authority to Recover.— The Secretary of the Army may recover from any country to which rifles, ammunition, repair parts, or other supplies described in section 40731 (a) of this title are furnished on a grant basis under the conditions imposed by section 505 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C. 2314) any such rifles, ammunition, repair parts, or supplies that become excess to the needs of such country.

(b) Cost of Recovery.—
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), the cost of recovery of any rifles, ammunition, repair parts, or supplies under subsection (a) shall be treated as incremental direct costs incurred in providing logistical support to the corporation for which reimbursement shall be required as provided in section 40727 (a) of this title.

(2) The Secretary may require the corporation to pay costs of recovery described in paragraph (1) in advance of incurring such costs. Amounts so paid shall not be subject to the provisions of section 3302 of title 31, but shall be administered in accordance with the last sentence of section 40727 (a) of this title.

(c) Availability for Transfer to Corporation.— Any rifles, ammunition, repair parts, or supplies recovered under subsection (a) shall be available for transfer to the corporation in accordance with section 40728 of this title under such additional terms and conditions as the Secretary shall prescribe for purposes of this section.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/40728A
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Old September 6, 2013, 10:19 PM   #34
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So since the CMP is recovering, not importing, they already have all the paperwork they need to get the rifles into their US warehouses, and this is just shutting down CAI, Blue Sky, etc.?
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Old September 7, 2013, 05:54 AM   #35
Orlando
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This would affect any company that wants to Import fiearms
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Old September 9, 2013, 11:28 PM   #36
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Report from Orest at the GCA convention:

http://forums.thecmp.org/showpost.ph...2&postcount=32

Quote:
Oddly enough no one asked Orest the question about the Presidential Order and what effect it will have on CMP. I joked with Orest about that when I had him aside after the banquet. He was surprised no one brought it up. But, as he always is, he was ready for it. He showed me a message on his cell from the CMP laywers that he had ready to read if the question came up. In short, the Order has no effect at all on CMP operations and sales since they are not an importer. The only real changes he saw was that California residents will have to go through an FFL to purchase rifles from the CMP after Jan 2014 because of a new law that will come into effect on Jan 1, 2014. Repeatedly during sales and throughout the Convention CMP often said they are doing business as usual and nothing has changed or will change.
So pretty much exactly what I said a week ago.
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Old September 9, 2013, 11:41 PM   #37
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Thank you EMCOM5, I was going to post that but you beat me too it.

I shot the Cody match, we were all pretty much informed the EO does in no way affect the CMP.
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Old September 17, 2013, 09:48 AM   #38
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I don't think that President Erkel really cares about the CMP. I'd venture to say that killing the Civilan Marksmanship Program or anything else to do with guns would help add to his ego trip.
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Old September 17, 2013, 09:54 PM   #39
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I've been following this issue since it first surfaced.

Let me first say that I REALLY hope I am wrong. But I believe that the CMP will be very much so involved in this.

Executive Order / Executive Action, whatever it is being called is in context very specific to government. Yes, the CMP *technically* does not import the rifles but the government does (Army from what I hear), and then turns those rifles over to the CMP which is now a commercial enterprise. The EO/EA would stop the government from importing the rifles in the first place so the CMP will not get them.

Think about it in the context of this administrations proven anti gun stance. Why would they let themselves (government) import guns to give/sell to the CMP for resale to the civilian sector. It just makes no sense, like all the other anti-gun legislation put forward.

Regards,

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Old September 18, 2013, 06:20 AM   #40
Orlando
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Well you can beleive all ypu want but you are wrong
Director of Ooperations of CMP even stated it WILL NOT AFFECT THEM
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Old September 18, 2013, 09:05 AM   #41
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Rob, read post #36 by emcon5 above. The CMP themselves have said they will not be affected.

IMHO this thread should be closed.
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Old September 22, 2013, 11:12 PM   #42
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On Aug 31st, inside the customer bldg. of the CMP in Anniston, staff told me in person that "We are 5,000 M-1s behind because of ammo orders".

A primary problem that seasoned M-1 observers anticipate is that there are probably only very small quantities of M-1 loans to foreign countries that somehow are still overseas. The CMP might now have only a decreasing amount.

The probability that many people will refuse to believe that the CMP actually IS Exempt from this Executive Action will only increase the orders (some don't read gun websites). Keep in mind the additional present and possible future factors influencing demand.

Last edited by Ignition Override; September 22, 2013 at 11:39 PM.
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Old September 24, 2013, 12:55 PM   #43
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OK, that specific EO applies to an importer other than a government agency bringing back M1 rifles and carbines that were loaned to other countries. That had actually been the law for years until the exception for C&R items was made in 1986(?).

But that is only part of the picture. I see no legal barrier to the president banning the Army from transferring any firearms or ammo to CMP. Under the law, the Army is ALLOWED to do that, not REQUIRED to do it.

In 1963, the Army was ready to release thousands of M1903A4 sniper rifles, with scopes, through DCM. They were also going to weld the selectors of M14 rifles and sell them to NRA members who were in rifle competition. After Nov. 22, both programs were abruptly cancelled. No law. No EO. No formal orders. Just the SECDEF issuing an order that he was told to issue. That's all it takes.

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Old September 24, 2013, 07:03 PM   #44
Art Eatman
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Until something changes, something new comes along, let's accept the CMP's version of reality.
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