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Old September 6, 2013, 09:19 AM   #26
HopeandChange
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Quote:
Jerry,

Too bad that 'smith didn't measure the barrel's bore and groove diameters; bore scopes don't do that.
Agreed! 900 ROUNDS?? And no sign of MOA?

That barrel should have been pin guaged about 825 rounds ago!
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Old September 6, 2013, 01:04 PM   #27
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Went back to the range yesterday after a complete disassembling and reassembly. Took 175 SMKs and Hornady 165 SPBT. No good!

I'm waiting on replies from one barrel maker and one suppliers.

Anyway. In my search for information I found this video. I won't be installing one but I thought it was an interesting device. http://youtu.be/DhRIebOY4Jk
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Old September 6, 2013, 04:27 PM   #28
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Bartlein 11.25 twist barrel will be here next week. Then it goes to the smith.
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Old September 6, 2013, 10:20 PM   #29
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I may have missed it but have you shot any factory match ammo out of it ? Federal GMM seems to be the cats meow when it comes to shooting well in any rifle .

I'm just now getting in to this whole reloading thing so I'm a bit lacking in the knowledge area . FWIW I have a Savage with a VERY short throat and while researching that issue I fond a few articles stating the the Rem 700 at times has a HUGE/LONG throat . Some were saying they could seat a 175gr smk to a OAL of 2.930 and it still be off the lands . Not sure what you were seating your bullets at but maybe you have one of those long throats and the jump is hurting your accuracy .

In contrast I have to seat a 175gr smk to a OAL of 2.730 to stay off the lands of my Savage . I was at the range last Friday trying out some hand loads and the guy next to me saw my notes and commented on the OAL of the 175gr smk . I told him the issue and he said thats not right and gave me some 308 military match ammo to try . I could not even get that stuff to chamber in my rifle . Could not get the bolt to close and did not want to force it .

So my short throat issue makes me think maybe your jumping your bullets to far and there going down the barrel back wards . OK maybe not that but I here some rifles don't like to be jumped .

Like I said I'm pretty new at this so what I just said may not mean a thing but I thought I'd throw it out there .
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Old September 7, 2013, 01:17 AM   #30
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I haven't shot factory ammo in a rifle other than 17 HMR and 22 LR in 35 years. Yes, my Remington throats are so long that a 180 set to .005 off the lands won't stay in the case. I believe they have to be something like .150 off the lands to be fully seated in the case neck. They make quite a jump but that's Remington for you. I've loading the SPS from magazine length 2.815 down to 2.800.

I have a 700 BDL in 30-06 1/10 twist that hase the same L O N G jump. Only likes 150 gr. bullets. It will shoot 1/2 MOA or less with Hornady 150 gr. FMJ and 1/2 MOA with Hornady 150 SPBT. Anything else it shoots MOA or lager. I bought the SPS for fast handling and shooting heavy bullets. It won't shoot heavy bullets and since the 06 shoots 150 gr. I don't need a 308 that only shoots (if it would even shoot) 150 gr. or lighter bullets. After the smith is finishes it won't be as fast handling but will shoot anything from 125 gr. to 180 gr. bullets to 1/4 MOA. That's what the bench-rest rifle he built for me does with me on the trigger and I'm sure the SPS will do the same when he's finished. But it won't be an SPS anymore. It will be a completely custom rifle.

Took me under 100 rounds to work up the loads for the custom gun he built. 1030 rounds and still haven't found anything the SPS will shoot under 2 MOA.

Sounds like your savage has a really short throat. If I remember correctly normal 308 length should be 2.800. Lyman calls for 2.810. My custom rifle is reamed so 2.810 puts the bullet at the lands. I load so the ogive is .005 off the lands. My CZ in .223 likes 53 gr. SMKs .030 of the lands and 65 gr. SGKs .002 off off the lands. It's nice when a chamber is reamed to the proper length. Remingtons cambering leaves a lot to be desired. But I supose if one wants to shoot 220 gr. bullets it's probably right up their ally.
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Old September 7, 2013, 12:40 PM   #31
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Updated with dates military shooters had "Sierra" and "Lake City" rifles.

Metal god, Federal Gold Medal Match ammo won't shoot too good in barrels with oversize groove diameters. I tried two different lots of it in two different Win. 70 .308 Win. factory match rifle barrels. Neither shot the Federal ammo as accurate as it did two lots of M118 7.62 NATO match ammo. With both barrels' groove diameters in the .3085" and .3086" range, only those .3086" diameter M2 172-gr. FMJBT arsenal match bullets shot well.

This is the reason why many military team members in the '70's and '80's shooting 7.62 NATO chambered semiauto rifles had one called their "Sierra" rifle and the other a "Lake City" rifle. The Sierra one had smaller groove diameters and shot Sierra's HPMK bullets more accurate but also shot the 172's very well. The LC rifle only shot the LC M118 ammo accurate.

In barrels with smaller groove dimensions, the Federal ammo does indeed shoot well. As does duplicating its component suite making ones own handloads.
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Old September 8, 2013, 01:07 PM   #32
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^^ I thought that the m118lr ammo was loaded with a 175gr Sierra matchking (hpbt)
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Old September 8, 2013, 02:46 PM   #33
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I had to back track some, to see your rifle to understand why you're so disappointed. I saw the targets and thought that, while they are nothing to brag about, but adequate for medium range deer hunting. Then I saw that you have the tactical version.

My first magnum centerfire rifle was a MDL 700. This was 1976. The best I was ever get was 1.5", five shot groups, with my reloads. My buddy who found an Arisaka 99 in his attic, that his father had brought home after WW2. He invested $35 in dies and bought 40 pieces Norma brass, some weird 173gr bullets and proceeded to shoot rings around my new sexy magnum rifle. He regularly was able to 5 shot groups well under an inch.

My, uncle a Methodist minister and a gunsmith, had no love for the Rem 700. He had MDL 721's, MDL 70's, Weatherby's and informed me that drilled bar stock as a receiver, washered recoil lugs, and fused bolts were a crime and a sin! I thought my 7 mag was all there was. He left me his MKV Deluxe, and not too long after that I sold my Remingtons. I now only own Weatherby's, Coopers, Rugers and a Belgian Browning.

My point is a rifle built in the old ways, with modern materials, will seldom disappoint. They will put a hurt on your wallet though. A rebarrel may help, but, shouldn't be necessary, IMO.

You can certainly make a REM 700 accurate if are willing to invest some more money, but, you know what I'm getting at. I feel your pain!

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Old September 8, 2013, 03:55 PM   #34
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Sierra280, yes, the M118LR ammo's loaded with a Sierra 175. The original M118 ammo introduced in 1964 had the military 172-gr. FMJBT M2 .3086" diameter bullet; the same bullet used in machine guns starting in the 1920's and a few years later in .30-06 arsenal match ammo until 1967. Between these two was the M852 ammo that came out around 1980; it had Sierra's 168-gr. HPMK bullet.

I edited my earlier post on "Sierra" and "Lake City" rifles used by military team members to reflect this. Thanks for your comments that got me to thinking somewhat more precise about the history of such stuff.
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Old September 8, 2013, 07:24 PM   #35
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Hesdliner, what hurts the most is my 1973 vintage 06 shots MOA or slightly larger with factory Remington 165s and most of my hand losds. Took a while to find out it likes 150 gr. bullets enough to shoot 1/2 MOA and smaler. The SPS, a praised sooter by many, won't come close to the OLD 06. Yah, its taking some $$$ but it will be a tack driver in the end.
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Old November 25, 2013, 10:49 PM   #36
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What's up with Remington and 1/10 twist?

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Old November 26, 2013, 07:22 AM   #37
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i bought a rem 722 in 308 made in 1955 at a very good price in ex condition that was full lenth glass bedded, it had weaver bases on it and i mounted a 12x leupold on it to see how it would shoot. the only shells i had were 175 smk,s with 43grs varget that i shoot in my match rifle,well it shot them into 3/4" groups, but they were four inches left of center with the adjustment turned to the wall. i remover the scope and weaver bases and found that the front mounting screw holes in the reciever were off center(maybe why it was a good price). i mounted a redfield base with the windage adjustments on the rear and now have a ex glass bedded rem 722 in 308. eastbank.
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Old November 26, 2013, 08:00 AM   #38
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Here is post from last year

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509846
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Old November 27, 2013, 05:10 AM   #39
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It is possible you could have a warped barrel. I have a 700 ADL Varmint that I bought a few years ago at Dick's. It shot pretty decent. I decided I anted to cut the barrel down to 20". When I went to pick it up the gunsmith told me the barrel was warped and wobbled in the lathe. Luckily the warping started at around the 21" mark. It is now straight and wobble free. Two days ago at the range the best group I had was .307" at 200 yards. This is with the factory injection molded stock that has the buttons at the end that contact the barrel. I have read that in some rifles there is a reason for the buttons making contact with the barrel.

I know this is a 1:12 barrel, but just offering up another possibility.
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Old November 27, 2013, 05:42 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry45
Remington 308s are 1/12.
People keep telling me that, and that might be a general rule of thumb, but I have a Remington 700 ADL in .308 that left Ilion in 1983. It's got a 1:10 barrel with the Remington date code on it. Remington may have installed different twists at different times for whatever reason they might have had for doing so.
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Old November 27, 2013, 06:14 AM   #41
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Remington been making 1/10 twist 308 for years from Rem 600,740,etc. I think APO is using that rifle and upgrading it # 3 on list

http://www.ashburyprecisionordnance.com/armory/
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Old November 27, 2013, 07:02 PM   #42
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I know Remington made 308 caliber barrels (30-06) in 1/10 but have never seen a factory Remmi. .308 Win. 1/10 until the AAC-SD came out. Not saying they don't exist just haven't seen any info on Remington's site about one. The only Remmy in .308 Win. I found with 1/10 was the AAC-SD. Even the Tactical SPS has 1/12 so I didn't think Remmi. made any. Looks like I was wrong.

As for the barrel being warped; it's straight on the outside. Doesn't mean the rifling is. But it's all water under the bridge. The Bartlein 1/11 1/4 shoots very well with 165 gr. SGK and 168 and 175 gr. SMK. Range master told me last week that I was going to shoot the barrel out. I replied "isn't that what they are for"? I love shooting it. Actually I'm still under 200 rounds down the tube.

What's not to like about a rifle that shoots like this.



This was working up loads. And as usual I pulled a few.

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Old November 30, 2013, 02:04 AM   #43
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Nice Groups jerry, bartlein makes one hell of a barrel. 1 in 11.25 is my favorite twist rate for the .308. My 5R was able to shoot 155gr scenars, 168gr SMKs, 175gr BT LRs, and 178gr BTHPs all 1/2 MOA.

Though this does worry me about the 700 AAC this is the second or third mention of accuracy or QC issues with this rifle i've seen and i've just been back on the forums after being absent a year. Friend of mine picked one up today and very much had me wanting one given the price. Don't know if i want to chance it, might have to just get another 5R but the 20" threaded version.
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Old November 30, 2013, 08:49 PM   #44
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Blackops, I saw the pic. you posted of the groop with your 5R. If my AAC-SD had grouped like that it would still be wearing the original barrel. Perhaps I should have gotten an R5 but the Bartlein sure shoots well. I have a 24" Kreiger heavy varmint 1 in 11.25 on another 308 in a fully ajustable Bell & Carlson. Can. You say HEAVY. It shoots fantastically with 168 SMKs. It shoots them so well that's all I shoot in it. Tried the Bergers 168 . The SMKs are less expensive and shoot just as well. It shoots so well that it has become boring at 100 yards. Hopefully some day I'll find a place where I can let it streatch it's legs.

I bought the AAC 20" to hunt with. I was very disipointed with how it shot. When I put the Bartlein on I hated to cut it off so it's 27 + the brake but I'm no longer in doubt that the bullet will go where the center of the crosshairs are. It really likes the 165 SGK.
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Old November 30, 2013, 11:58 PM   #45
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I don't think you should've gotten the 5R, i'd take a bartlein barreled remington action over any rifle remington could mass produce. Bartlein makes some great barrels i've been meaning to rid of my 5R barrel for some time now and put a Bartlein on it.

Come to think of it i could just get a bartlein for my current setup, take my 5R barrel and cut it to 16.5-18.5 and get an action. We shall see i guess, already know my 5R shoots. Taking that barrel and having it cut and threaded might not be a bad idea at all.

Then again while the idea is sound it's going to be much than just picking up an AAC lol. Granted it would all be done right from start to finish but i'd basically be starting a new build rather than piecing it together.
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Old December 1, 2013, 02:58 PM   #46
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The way your R5 shoots I wouldn't mess with it. I'd get another action, stock and etc. for the Bartlein barrel. I wish I had just bought a beater rifle from the pawn shop and put the Bartlein on it from the get-go. Heck the only thing left from the original AAC is the bolt and receiver.
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Old December 1, 2013, 03:42 PM   #47
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Yeah i just saw Manners has a mini chassis that i could use instead of bedding the stock then getting DBM. I wish i would've known that when i built my rifle. Not that there is anything wrong with the route i went (Glass/pillar bed then DBM later). Been piecing it together though.

Remington 700 AAC (hopefully it shoots lol) 600$
MCS TA 595$
MCS Mini chassis DBM 360$
Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10X32mm FFP - supposedly under 700$ though I've only seen it for 800$

No gun smithing requried.

A good friend of mine always does that, goes to the pawn shop and grabs a BDL or ADL for the action then touches up the stock and adds a shilen match select.

Thinking selling my 14.5" AR to fund this, i just don't use it and figured i'd could get a good chunk of money for considering whats in it. If i was shooting 3-gun or carbine classes it would be different. Since i got my MK12 Mod 1 going my BCM 14.5 basically sits in my room.
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Old December 1, 2013, 04:28 PM   #48
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If you decided to build try one of Bell & Carlson Medalists stocks. I have two that the action was just dropped in and they shoot very well. One is the haevy build with the Kreiger barrel that shoots 1/4 MOA. The last one, third stock, an M 40, we bedded just the recoil lug for ****s and giggles. Thats the one with th Bartlein in it. You see how it shoots.
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Old December 1, 2013, 08:06 PM   #49
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A friend of mine is planning to put his AAC in a medalist, personally i've always found them to not be aesthetically pleasing but i'll have to get behind one to really see. For this particular rifle i was thinking i'd go with more of a classic stock like the MCS TA, maybe have it 90% carbon fiber to reduce some weight to as this would be a mobile/truck gun.

End product looking similar to this, though it would be nowhere near the quality i love the look of George's extreme hunter.

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Old December 1, 2013, 09:30 PM   #50
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Started out looking like this.



Same setup with the Bartlein installed. I just didn't have the mag in or the cheek pad installed when I took the pick. Looks pretty close to what you want.

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