The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 31, 2013, 11:11 AM   #1
keithdog
Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2013
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 93
Selling your gun and regulations.

Things have changed since I sold guns back in the 80's here in Indiana. I've been out of the loop for the last 20 years for the most part, but now that I am getting back into gunning, I need to catch up. Back when I was selling guns here in Indiana, there was a required 7 day waiting period after registration before you could take your hand gun home. Now that is very different. I am going to sell my S&W 4013TSW .40 cal. I was talking to one of the gentleman at our local gun shop yesterday and he was telling me that in Indiana, if I sell my gun, there is no registration required when I sell it. He suggested having a sales receipt showing what I am selling including serial number for both me and the buyer, but that was all I needed to be concerned about. Basically saying I can simply take the guys money and let him walk with the gun. I am sure he knows what he is talking about, but that does not make sense to me, since the gun is currently registered in my name with the state. It seems there should be a transfer of ownership to legally change the registration to the new owner. What's your thoughts?
keithdog is offline  
Old August 31, 2013, 11:56 AM   #2
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,501
Quote:
I've been out of the loop for the last 20 years... when I was selling guns here in Indiana, there was a required 7 day waiting period after registration... the gun is currently registered in my name with the state. It seems there should be a transfer of ownership to legally change the registration to the new owner.
I don't know anything at all about IN guns laws 20 years ago, but according to the state's own FAQ, there is presently no registration requirement in the state. (I wish EVERY state would publish an easy-to-understand firearms FAQ!) Link here:

http://www.in.gov/isp/files/2010_Fir...ing_FAQ(3).pdf
Quote:
If I purchase a handgun from a private person, do I have to complete a transfer form?

No. Indiana does not require the completion of a form for a private purchase nor do you have to route the transfer through a dealer. Recommend reviewing statutes in IC 35- 47-2.5 which is the chapter regulating the sale of handguns in regards to a private sale or purchase. The department also recommends exchanging receipts to document the transfer.

Do I have to register my handgun in Indiana?

No. Indiana law does not require registration. Federal forms must be completed when purchasing a handgun from a dealer, but not private transfers or sales; however this is not a state registration program.
(emphasis mine)

If IN did in fact have a registration program 20 years ago, it is evidently no longer in force.

The federal 7-day waiting period went away when the national NICS instant background check system was implemented some years ago. Some states have since chosen to implement their own mandatory waiting periods, but IN is evidently not one of them. You may, however, be subject to a waiting period if the NICS check comes back as "DELAY", meaning that the check uncovered something hinky, and the FBI may need a few days to complete the check. (Delays are often caused by something relatively trivial, such as a criminal who lives in your area and simply has a name similar to yours.)

The federal DOJ Form 4473 that one fills out when buying a gun at a dealer does not formally constitute "registration"- tinfoil hat accusations to the contrary notwithstanding (let's not discuss that here. ). The approved forms are retained by the dealer for 20 years; the ATF does not get them unless the dealer ceases operation, or has to hand them over for specific investigative purposes. Also, the specific identity of the firearm is not discussed during the NICS phone call; only the general type of firearm is disclosed.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

Last edited by carguychris; August 31, 2013 at 12:01 PM. Reason: minor reword...
carguychris is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 09:41 AM   #3
keithdog
Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2013
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 93
Thankyou Chris! I was having trouble finding anything definitive online.
keithdog is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 10:39 AM   #4
Revoltella
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 7, 2013
Posts: 198
In a private party FTF sale, all that is necessary is he hands you payment and you hand him gun.

It's a good idea to check he's a resident of your state and make a cursory inquiry that's he's legally eligible to buy a gun. At that point you've done your due diligence.

Bills of sale, signatures etc are entirely superfluous, and I'd tell you to take a hike.
Revoltella is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 09:46 AM   #5
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,112
On the other hand, if the gun is associated with you in any way, it would be wise to get some kind of proof of your passing it on to someone else.
No different than with a car.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old September 3, 2013, 03:17 PM   #6
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,501
Quote:
Originally Posted by g.willikers
On the other hand, if the gun is associated with you in any way, it would be wise to get some kind of proof of your passing it on to someone else. No different than with a car.
+1; however, in a state without mandatory registration, I prefer to compare it to a bicycle or a musical instrument.

It has significant value, is commonly stolen, and does not have any sort of official title issued by the state. Therefore, I feel it is important to have documentation showing that I obtained and disposed of the item in a lawful manner.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old September 3, 2013, 05:19 PM   #7
armsmaster270
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,944
And if it is used in a crime & traced back to you when the police talk to you say "I sold it to some guy. '
__________________
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com
http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/
Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.
armsmaster270 is offline  
Old September 3, 2013, 11:51 PM   #8
hermannr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2011
Posts: 730
Everyone might remember, "innocent until proven guilty".

Personally, I am a collector and only buy, and never sell (may give some to my kids, but I don't sell)

HOWEVER: if some person wanted ID and a CPL before he would sell to me, I would tell him that then there was no sale. If I want to do paperwork, I will deal with an FFL. If I purchase privately, I expect to be respected as an honest citizen.

Do I have a CPL? sure, have had for years, buy I do not believe that I am a criminal unless I prove my innocence, and I will not deal with anyone on that basis.
hermannr is offline  
Old September 4, 2013, 03:12 AM   #9
rotten mick
Member
 
Join Date: August 28, 2013
Posts: 74
Also for my files I use this sales form... just to have if ever needed.... its one of the best I've come across. CYA.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf billofsalefillable.pdf (64.0 KB, 117 views)
__________________
"There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading.
The few who learn by observation.
The rest of them have to touch an electric fence"..... Will Rogers.
rotten mick is offline  
Old September 4, 2013, 12:35 PM   #10
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,306
Quote:
And if it is used in a crime & traced back to you when the police talk to you say "I sold it to some guy."
That seems all well and good until you're in that position. Depending on the severity and profile of the crime, the seller could be put through a great deal of trouble, even if law enforcement can't prove collusion.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old September 4, 2013, 01:27 PM   #11
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,986
Quote:
That seems all well and good until you're in that position. Depending on the severity and profile of the crime, the seller could be put through a great deal of trouble
Not to mention expense, particularly if the feebs are involved.
csmsss is offline  
Old September 4, 2013, 01:52 PM   #12
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,753
I usually do a bill of sale when I sell a gun to someone I don't know, which isn't very often, but it doesn't get into logging personal info when not needed. Just a signed statement that they can legally own it and they are a resident of my state. They get the same info from me on their copy of the BOS. If I sell something that's listed in my C&R bound book, I have to get the required disposition info, but I let the buyer know that up front. If they don't want to sign a BOS, or give me info for the bound book (when applicable), they don't have to buy it. There are probably 30 others that will have no problem signing a bill of sale or give info for my bound book. I bet that most of you protesting saying you'd walk away would be quick to sign if the deal is good.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old September 4, 2013, 02:21 PM   #13
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,986
I rarely if ever sell firearms. On those occasions when I do, I typically record a bill of sale. The bill of sale records only the date and the other party's name, state and DL number (I don't care or need to know where he/she lives, but the DL number is a unique, traceable number). If a LEO comes a knockin' about a firearm that was previously in my possession, that information should be adequate for them to find the other party.

Once you transfer a firearm to another person, there is no way to know or control how it is subsequently used, and I don't think it's reasonable or practical to ask any private person to attempt to conduct a background check on such a transaction, but at a minimum I can at least give an LEO with legitimate investigatory need at least a jump start on locating the party to whom I transferred the firearm. I think that's enough.
csmsss is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09662 seconds with 10 queries